Well. Good afternoon. Welcome to The Covenant Eyes Podcast. I'm your host today, Rob Stoddard. My co-host Karen Potter is is off today. And so it's just going to be be me solo. But, but I do have a wonderful guest today, and I think you're really going to enjoy this conversation. I'd like to introduce Geremy Keaton. Geremy is the senior director of counseling services at Focus on the Family. Geremy, welcome to The Covenant Eyes Podcast. Rob. Thank you. It's a pleasure to speak with friends at Covenant Eyes, and we love supporting those that you're in relationship with, as well. So thanks for the invite from Focus. Well, great. Well, Geremy, as we start out, would you just tell us, tell our listeners just a little bit about yourself and and also your role there at, Focus on the Family in your ministry. Thanks, Rob. I'm a marriage and family therapist. I'm, clinically trained in helping couples. That's my background. I've worked at Focus on the Family since the beginning of my counseling career, 23 years. And, I've been at this great ministry, and, we love helping families thrive in Christ. And that includes helping marriages and parents. And we do, phone consultations here at the ministry, complementary, ministry consultations from licensed and pastoral, specialists in mental health, various disciplines. And I lead that team. I'm the director of our counseling team. We have right around 20 folks on our phone lines, and we talk to about 1100 people a month in this department of the ministry. And of course, the ministry has, a lot of, a lot of content, a lot of web articles and many aspects of family helping materials. And then people call us in response to that, and we get to talk about everything from potty training to pornography addiction and everything in between as we consult with people here at Focus. Now that's wonderful. It's a wonderful ministry and so, so well-regarded, for sure. Well, let's just jump in, talk a little bit about this. So at Focus on the Family, you're working closely with individuals, mainly couples. Some of those are struggling with pornography and sexual addiction. You know, what kinds of issues do you typically see that impact marriages and families around this issue of pornography? Well, we we get the privilege, the sacred privilege to sometimes be the first phone call that a husband or wife, a mom or dad make when they're looking for resources and in some ways, dealing with the fallout or the shock of a discovery of pornography use in their home, in disrupting their marriage. And so we experience, first off, a lot of trust from individuals because they're feeling oftentimes panic, fear or shame. That comes from, what happens as a result of habitual or addictive pornography use. You know, I see regularly our team sees regularly at a real basic bottom line level as pornography issues hurt hearts. This is not a this is not I mean, our instincts tell us this is not family friendly, marriage friendly material, despite what is being kind of sold and trumpeted as, you know, this is free and harmless. There's so many things. And you talk about it all the time on your podcast, and I don't your listeners probably don't need that specific education about all the brain damage, literally, that's happening. But it hurts hearts, spouses, you know, spouses don't feel that they are the single apple of the eye of of their of their husband or wife when the one of them is habitually using pornography. I see that it hurts faith. For those that, you know, want to live in line with their deeply held faith, their religious faith, with their walk with God, there is an inconsistency when you know that lust is controlling you. So there's a distancing with God, a chilling of the relationship, or at least, hiding even like in the Garden of Eden. Right? Hiding from God. That happens. But when we allow this to just set up camp in our lives, it also for Christians violates the the symbol of radical exclusivity. Sexuality is built for the believer on radical exclusivity. And so it it hurts that part of even being a consistent witness. And I can continue to to talk about what what we hear as we talk with spouses. But a lot of fear and, safety in the marriage, a lot of questions. And it progresses and people lose jobs, people. I mean, there's a spectrum of how far it progresses for different people, but just a lot of of fall out compromise and teaching your children about healthy sexuality and pornography, if you yourself are kind of running from and burying your head in the issue. So I could keep going, Rob. But that's some of what we see as we talk with families, and we're honored to help get the healing process started. Yeah, absolutely. And you're right, we could continue on going on and on because it's so deep and and hurts and, damages us in so many areas. Geremy, one of the things we kind of constantly hear from couples and families is just the, maybe one partner coming into, maybe a marriage counseling session and not quite there yet. Maybe, not seeing all the lows, damage, damage areas that that it's doing. What are some of the myths and misunderstandings about pornography that, that, you know, men or women bring into your counseling sessions? Yes. Which one to start with? I think one of the first ones is, even in Christian marriages, even sometimes from the church, certainly from the culture, there's the myth that if we just, you know, did more sex, had a sexier marriage, it would solve this issue of one of the partners seeking out porn. And the fact of the matter is, and sometimes not exclusively, but often women are told either explicitly or tacitly. It's suggested if you if you will only serve your spouse or service your spouse with being more, you know, maybe even mimicking some things that are in the pornography. Right. And the kind of, spicing up the marriage, having a porn ified marriage rather than, you know, a glorified and, and godly view of sex that somehow that that's okay. And what you really should do. So that breaks, breaks my heart because they're that's real. I would even say diabolical misinformation. Another one is, just send off the the husband will say and get him fixed and then, you know, just kind of a non couple based approach to counseling when this in fact is both individuals deserve attention and help as well as the couples. So there's kind of three journeys in recovery the husband, the wife or the user and the offended. However you want to divide that, you know, the husband or wife can be, the person using pornography habitually. But then there's the third entity, which is the marriage. And all three parts need attention at different paces, different stages. And so it's not just send an addicted person off and then just kind of they need to do their thing and just come back better when actually there's an opportunity. It's hard to get there, but there's an opportunity for the marriage system to be revamped and retooled so that you are actually better than you ever were before this crash. Right. And so the myth of just send one person away to get fixed. And then there's, there's the myth that it's really all about the sex or the porn itself, that that's the issue. And that's, that's the symptom of relational and emotional things that are driving this particular symptom. Right. And I, I, you know, individuals that could stop using pornography and still have many of the emotional deficits and maybe use another quote, substance. Right. We all know situations where an alcoholic might stop drinking and alcohol but just switch to another addiction. Or they call it the quote, dry drunk syndrome of this. This is not really all about just the acting out. That's what we think is the most hurtful, but there's something driving it in your own history. There's coping mechanisms that you're using it for as and you are, needing to expand your emotional vocabulary and your ability to be safe and intimate with people. And then the pornography can be supplanted in your life. Or here's one is just get a filter to just get an accountability partner and try harder. Pray harder and just arrest the behavior. Grab grab Ahold of your chair and just white knuckle it, you know, and just try really hard and and and you know, pray harder. The spiritual only solution. And it's much more holistic than that. So those are some of the myths that I see in recovery efforts, as well as misinformation about sex, that are out there. Yeah. So true, so true. You mentioned accountability and certainly, in what you portrayed there 100% accurate. We know one of the things in marriages that, breaks down is that trust between the husband and wife. Can you talk a little bit more, a little deeper about the importance of accountability in that recovery process? And really, what does healthy accountability look like? You know, that's right. That's right. And so, in mentioning accountability partners, I in no way want to suggest that it's not an essential part of a, a really like a three legged stool, a stool doesn't stand on its own. You need community as well as, you know, counseling and internal insights. And what's so important about accountability? I like to even think of the term of transformative relationships, not just an accountability partner. I have someone walking with me to help me transform my life. And so, accountability is a good word. It I do need to be accountable to people, but I think healthy accountability is not merely behavior check in based. It is emotional wellness, bonding, attachment. A safe place to say, here's honestly where I was tempted to go today, or where I did go today, and somebody who can say, I'm with you, I hear you, and let's discover, let's follow the breadcrumbs backwards to the source of what your heart was really needing, rather than, okay, let's just again, kind of get in a situation where your accountability partner is sort of just cracking the whip on you so that you have consequences and you have to tell somebody how bad you are. That's not it. You want to be in a transformative brotherhood or sisterhood that says, I see you how you are. I love you anyway, and I'm going to help you fill your heart. I'm going to be a partner in filling your heart with the living water of life and the skills that it takes, and that's what a good coach or counselor will do. Do as well. But you need somebody in your day to day life. You're you're you're not. That's not your paid coach or counselor that can just pass alongside you while you're doing your coaching or counseling. And I like to call it a transformative relationship journeying partner. Right. That's the that's what defines healthy and productive accountability. Rather than just check in and tell me if you've been bad. And you know what? Let me just kind of, let me just tell you, you need to man up and and let me tell you what you're what you're doing wrong. And some accountability. Relationships fall into something akin to that. Right. And that's where getting good material from ministries that help you shape your accountability in a way that it's a truly a transformative relationship. Rather than a behavior management relationship. Yeah, well well said. Well said. I think the best definition I've heard of accountability relationship like that is when your partner is walking you to the feet of Christ, just continually bringing you back to that relationship. And you, you talked about that transformative, piece that's that's so important, so wonderful. Geremy, I'm sure you talk with many, you know, with, parents and, families are struggling with this. We know, you know, the the terrible impact it's having on the youth. Now, talk a little bit about what parents can do proactively to really help educate and protect their children around this issue of pornography. Yeah, if you have small children especially, but really, any time, begin, begin to talk in, especially with young children kind of early and often about the goodness of the body, the protection of the body, sexual education and having tools for that little storybooks. There's resources out there. There's resources we have from Focus on the Family. There's downloadable guides about language you can use with your kids. Anything around sexual education is, has good potential to be pornography, prevention. And you can integrate teaching healthy sexuality the beauty of male and female. Why God created marriage is a symbol of his love. And you're sprinkling these these healthy sexual messages early and often. Even little things like when I would, take care of our children and bathe our toddlers at bedtime and cuddling and, and even teach them about body protection right as we're bathing. Right in the in the end, you know, only mom and dad, maybe a doctor would, help clean or touch, this part of your body while we're washing, but our body so good that we protect it. You talk about that goodness, you talk about protection, and then you talk about the dignity of other people and why we don't, look at people in ways that make them an object for us to look at or for us to lust over when you can. Lust is taking for the benefit of myself, not, whereas love is serving for the benefit of the other. And you talk about the difference between love and lust, you're just slowly sprinkling in these messages and Focus on the Family. We have a downloadable free guide of all the language. You can use it every age and stage on healthy sex ed in that, downloadable PDF file is, at FocusOnTheFamily.com/thetalk. And of course we know the talk is not one talk. It's many talk. So we're teaching you how to have the talks. As you download this little guy to 18 page little, I keep it in my home. We have it and we review it, like, as each of our kids have aged, have we really covered these concepts that really need to be installed in their hearts and in their language? At each agent stage. And that's FocusOnTheFamily.com/thetalk. And then there's, there's toy books out there. There's, you know, the classic good pictures, bad pictures, these things that you've probably linked to off of your page in your podcast before. But early and often conversations start with health, not just the bad. Right. All right. That's wonderful, wonderful advice. And yeah, so needed. Geremy, let me, switch, topics here a little bit. I work with the church here at Covenant Eyes. Day in and day out and so many churches are really struggling on how to help. And not just individuals, but families deal with this issue of pornography. So what would you say? What's the role of the church in really fostering healing, helping provide, help for those that are struggling with pornography? Any any advice for churches? Well, interestingly enough, getting upstream of this the same way that I just talked about with parents and parenting, parents or shepherd or shepherding their child's hearts through healthy sex threat, healthy sex education. I think if a church has positive sermons, worldview sermons, and apologetic for why marriage is between a man and a woman, all of the if pastors receive support and, having, whether it's classes in your model of church or sermons around God's design for sexuality and then out of that, you can begin to talk about the and teach about the deviations or where we naturally drift off the mark. And yet we find Jesus right there with us. Talk about how the sexual sinner in the New Testament, if you really look at Jesus's interactions with with those that are, you know, brought before him or interacting around sexuality, it's it seems as if he's the most compassionate with those dealing with this very personalized type of, sin or identity issue. And so sermons in discussions so that it's not just an us them mentality of, well, we in the church somehow are pious and actually we are all in a journey of sanctification, and we're all made with the goodness of sexuality, and we need to steward it in our church. We want to be about having not only teaching kids about healthy sexuality, but about, the friendship of Jesus with the struggler. And so having testimonies and stories of overcoming, having groups that are, well led, well, you know, well educated, there are ministries out there that we link to from Focus on the Family that specialize this. They have curriculum that have online groups that have, retreats and they're they're not just or pray harder, try harder type approach. They're ministries that really understand the body, the mind and the spiritual approach, to recovery. Bring those ministries in, have fliers on tables, have Covenant Eyes materials out in the lobby, run a Covenant Eyes, ad on your screen, scrolling before after services as a recommended resource for families. Do the same with Focus on the families pornography resources page. It Focus on the Family.com/pornography. It's a one stop shop of ministries that we refer to. Articles, sex education materials, have the specialized resources available and partner with specialist ministries because you don't need to do it all as the church. You need to know who can help you and come alongside in a way that's compatible. And I a little biased, but I really Focus on the Family as well as Covenant Eyes. Are a couple of those many things out there these days, with ministry specializing in this kind of care. Give platform to those resources. Wonderful advice, wonderful advice. Well, Geremy, as we're kind of running out of time here. You mentioned a number of, of resources. And we will put all of these in the show links. But could you go back through if somebody is looking for help, if a man or woman couple looking for help, where do they where do they find that that Focus on the Family? I've mentioned it a couple of times that we do ministry phone consultations and just listen to folks. We we we we care. We do a 1 or 2 time phone consultation, one 800 a family calling one 800 a family are classic, easy to remember number. You can request a counseling consultation and a specialist will call you back. Within, within the day or two, we will have time on the phone with you. It's not a therapy session. It's not ongoing counseling, but it is a, deep and clinically informed in a, pastorally informed time to really talk about what are the next steps you can be taking for your marriage. What are some resources that we can get you? And a lot of the resources on this topic are found at Focus on the Family.com/pornography. Many books, articles, materials, links to we've partnered with Covenant Eyes. We have a devotional, series, for folks that, it's on your site, we link to it. It comes from our book. And I'd like to show the cover of this, our book. Aftershock. This is for, wives and their husbands, but aftershock overcoming his secret life with pornography. A plan for recovery. This is one particular book I really want to emphasize. If you're a married couple listening, I helped, another specialist counselor write this because we get so many calls of what are the steps I can take, how can I intervene, and what's the hope for my marriage? We answer all of that chapter by chapter in this book and give a stepping stone process for confronting someone who is, maybe not repentant yet of this issue, or dealing with when somebody has disclosed or been caught. This is the this is kind of our phone consultation process in a book. These are the steps we continually over and over walk married couples through and our phone consultations. And we said we need a book for this. And so FocusOnTheFamily.com/aftershock, slash aftershock. You can order the book and a call us. We'll talk with you about it. If you cannot afford to get this book. We believe in the hope for marriages so much that we want you to call us. And, we have generous donors. We want you to know that we'll find a way if you truly can't, afford the book at this time, we'll get it in your hands. And that is something we love doing as part of our, phone consultations with people and couples that call us. All right. Excellent. Thank you. Geremy can hear your heart as a counselor, and, you you and Focus on the Family. It's just been such a wealth of, information and care over the years. So what a wonderful ministry. I wish we had more time to continue on, because I know there's a whole lot more depth there for sure, but, but that's the end of our time today. Geremy, thank you so much for joining us. And thank you for your ministry. There is help. There's hope, there's friendship with us there is no need to call with your head down and in shame. And I know that you share that frequently from Covenant Eyes. On this podcast, we celebrate the fact that, we can have the redemption and the hope in Christ, even if it's a journey. Right? There's a journey of recovery. But, with friendship, with help, it's possible. And there's hope for marriages. And, we're we're glad to be a part of that story. Amen. Amen. Well, to our listeners, thank you for joining us today. I'm sure you enjoyed this. Check out those all those wonderful resources. Those will be again, they'll be shared in the in the show notes. But until next time, thanks for joining us. Take care. God bless.