Welcome back to the Covenant Eyes podcast, everybody. It is so good to have you back with us. We have got a great show for you today. We've got Jenny Solomon joining us. She is a guest blogger and also an author of a victory course. And if you haven't checked out our victory app, you need to check it out. We have got courses for everyone in there. A lot of them are free and all of them are available to everybody by using the link in the show notes. So make sure you check that out. Our guest today, Jenny, actually holds a Bachelor of Arts in philosophy, and religion from the College of Ozarks. She attended the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and she's the author of an amazing book called Reclaim Your Marriage Grace for Wives Who Have Been Hurt by Pornography. She's a freelance writer, a guest blogger, and the co-founder of Solomon Soul Care. She lives in her, in Kentucky, where I met, with her husband, Curtis, and two sons. And we are so grateful to have you joining us. Thank you so much. Thank you. Karen, it's great to be with you today. Yeah. So for those that are not familiar with some of the coursework that you've done in the victory app or even the blogs that you've done for us over the years, can you share a little bit about your personal journey and what led you to write this book? Reclaim your Marriage? Yes, absolutely. So my husband and I met in seminary, and he struggled with pornography for several years in our marriage, and we found at that time we've been married. Now I should back up. We've been married now for almost 22 years. And resolutions. Thank you so much. It's yes, one of the sweetest gifts the Lord has ever given me is Curtis. But we struggled. He struggled for many years with pornography, and especially early on in our marriage, we weren't sure what to do. We weren't sure who to talk to. We weren't sure what steps we needed to take to help him with that struggle. And so coming to a point in our marriage where there was there's been a lot of growth, repentance and change in him. And we came to a point where we really thought that it would be pleasing to the Lord to write about the experience that we had. And so one of the best parts about it was I was able to write my book from the perspective of a wife who had experienced suffering. And then he also wrote a companion book for Husbands Who Are Struggling, and it is called Redeem Your Marriage Hope for Husbands Who Have Hurt Through pornography. So that's one of the beautiful things. If anyone's listening today, there is an option. You can certainly read this book standalone, but there's also an option to to work through them together. That is amazing. And I know that we have listeners that are spouses, we have listeners that are struggling with pornography and often the hardest part is the hurt in the pain that we caused one another. And how do we address that? So I think these books would be a really great resource for our listeners to check out. So as you were writing this book, you know, obviously there's a lot that goes into that and sharing your personal testimony and the story of redemption that you and your husband experienced, there probably were some hard parts to that. So talk to us a little bit about writing the book and how that helped you grow personally and spiritually together as a couple, and then both individually as well. I think the hardest thing about writing the books was putting into words aspects of the experience that I had felt, but never fully articulated. And that certainly wasn't the case with the entire book. But there were aspects, especially that had to do with body image, that I just had never really put into words and even really shared with Curtis. And so having the chance to do that and to talk through with him some of the ways that his passion had affected me was a really beautiful opportunity in our marriage for us to just be broken together. And, and I think what we experienced and discovered in that was the beauty of lament. That lament allows a person who has been sinned against to go to the Lord, but it also allows a person who has sinned to go to the Lord and to say, like, I'm actually really hurting over, over the sins that I have caused other people. And and so that journey for us, even though it was painful, was really one of the most beautiful things that came out of the book for us personally. That is so good. So as you think about this issue of pornography and how it affects women or spouses, emotionally, spiritually and relationally, can you talk to us a little bit about what that journey is like and what that experience is like for the the wife or, or a spouse in general? Yeah. So betrayal is is the heart of it, right? When someone in your life, there's a huge breach of trust. And sexual fidelity is one of the cornerstones of a healthy marriage. And so when that trust is broken, the person who experiences that hurt, that betrayal has, there's just such a large gamut of emotions. I think you can feel hopeless, this person, they're never going to change if particularly if this has been an ongoing struggle, you know, will this ever get better? How can I ever trust this person again? You can be angry at the person you can be angry at. God. God, why are you allowing this to happen to me? They can certainly even turn inward and say like, well, maybe I'm part of the problem, which isn't the truth. I think that's a lie. We really have to fight. But it's easy to start to believe the lie that maybe, maybe I've caused this struggle, or there's something I could have done differently to make my husband not struggle with pornography, which I just, in the book, try to assure women over and over again that his sin is 100% his responsibility. Because I don't want women who are already hurting to bear any kind of unnecessary or false guilt over that. That's a really good point. And I know that, over the years I've been here with Covenant Eyes for about eight years and we've talked to so many different women that have gone through this, this challenge in their marriage. And one of the the things that I have found most troubling is that from time to time, we'll hear, where church leaders or others that are offering wisdom and insight into their lives, offering them not good advice, you know, and saying there's, you know, a role that the woman plays in this and that she should do more or, you know, maybe just have sex more, dress nicer. All these things we have heard those hurtful comments come from, people in their lives. How does that impact a spouse? And did you have anyone in your life speaking those kind of things at all, or were you, certainly surrounded by people with good wisdom that helped you through this? The tricky part for us is that we really just didn't have for many years, especially early on. We didn't have anyone speaking into it, or if we tried to get help, we would talk to someone a few times. And we certainly we got compassionate care. There was no one speaking lies to me, that it was more just we really don't have time to deal with this. And, and so I think after going to a few different people and asking for help and having people not be particularly interested in helping, it just felt like, well, maybe this is something we just have to deal with on our own instead of realizing, no, really, this is a place the church should be involved. And I appreciate what you said, because believing a lie that I've convinced myself of is one thing, but having someone speaking lies to you and saying saying to a wife, or if it's a husband whose wife is committing you know, looking at pornography, I don't want to rule that out. That certainly can be a case. But the person that's being hurt, yes. If you are in a church or have people in your life who who claim to be Christians, who are saying that your body is part of the problem, like you said, like if you just dress nicer or lost a few pounds, or if they're saying to you that if you were just having more sex or better sex with your spouse, I would say to you that you are not in a church that understands the scriptures, and I would look for a new place to worship, because those things are certainly not true. And to have someone in your life who is supposed to be shepherding your soul and teaching you about what it means to know and follow the Lord. If they're saying those things to you, they are not. They're not speaking the truth to you. Absolutely, absolutely. Many wives that are, you know, in this position and husbands can be in this position as well. I mean, now we know that 40 over 40% of Christian women are struggling with pornography. So this can be either spouse. But for today, we're going to kind of focus in on the women. When wives feel are going through this, they feel so isolated. And there is a level of feeling shame, you know, what would you say to the women that are listening to this podcast who might be struggling with those feelings and feel alone in this battle? I'm so glad you said that, because it is such a lonely, isolating place to be. And it makes sense because sexuality is not something we talk about a lot, and it's not something that we share with a lot of people. You know, it's that a private moment between you and your spouse. And so it's hard to share that. But I will say that if you can find someone who understands the scriptures, loves the Lord, and is willing to talk through this issue with you, this is another one of the reasons that I wrote this book, because I realized that there are people in the church who care very much, and they want to see other believers growing, and they want to see marriages flourishing, and they might not know exactly how to help. And so I tried to create a resource that offers content where there are topics that are going to be relevant to you and your suffering. And then at the end, there are questions and additional resources. So you could read this book alongside someone else and then not only hopefully by the end of it, they would understand your struggle and understand help you understand, like what are the next steps you can take together to continue to grow? I just my desire in writing this book is to help, to bring this struggle out into the light of community. Appropriate community. Not that everyone needs to know, but that you need to have a few wise people in your life who really know you and are speaking into this difficulty. That is so good, and you know it is. It is a growing trend. We're seeing more churches find ways to integrate talking about some of these issues, and that's a positive. I mean, we have a long ways to go though, because as a whole, the big C church is not addressing these issues. And we often say, you know, well, you know, it's just kind of uncomfortable or maybe it's a mixed audience. There's children in the, you know, in the church. And we don't want to offend. But the problem is, is that culture is constantly giving us message messages of what their view on sex and sexuality is all the time. And so the church really does need to be a beacon of hope, I believe, to this topic, and I'm really a support system for people going through this. Would you agree with that? Oh, I absolutely agree with you. I think that the church can find ways to care for people through, whether that's through small groups or what I would encourage. So if someone today tells me I'm struggling, I don't know what to do. What I would say to them is get a copy of my book and take it to someone at your church that you trust. Maybe that's a Sunday school or community group leader. Maybe that's one of your pastors. Maybe that's just an older Christian that you've watched them in their marriage, and you've seen this couple has a lot of tenderness toward each other, like they really seem to care for and respect one another. And, I think that's a good starting place. But I also think for someone maybe who's listening and thinking, what can the church do? I would just encourage you if you're a pastor, to have resources like this available and talk about it from the pulpit in inappropriate ways, you know, you can. It's our pastor does a great job of talking about difficult topics in a way that if there's a child in the room, it's it's going to kind of skim over their heads. You know, I think that's that's one of the best gifts you can give. And then also let people in your church know, hey, if you've struggled in this area and if you've had some victory, we would love to hear how you're doing now. And we would love to be able to connect you with younger couples who you can care for and walk with, and just having those channels of communication open so that people know that they can share and they'll be received and not not turned away with that struggle. Absolutely. That is so good. In the book, you talk a lot about Grace. And, you know, I want to talk a little bit about how wives can extend grace while also setting healthy boundaries, because that can be such a hard and tricky line to walk there, because you do need healthy boundaries as you're going through the betrayal trauma. But we also do need to extend grace because that is a, you know, a gift that's freely given to us. And who are we to withhold that from? Not to others. Yeah, that's that's such a good point. And so my starting point for thinking about that is when we look in the book of acts, we see that our belief in Jesus, who Jesus Christ is in our repentance, are really closely linked together. And so I think keeping that link and not trying to separate those two out into two separate areas is really helpful in this situation. So I would say to wife, we want to be merciful, we want to extend forgiveness, but we also want to help our spouse understand that those things come. A heart that wants to receive forgiveness will also be a heart that desires to repent. And so then I think helping them to maybe establish like what would repentance look like? And you can talk through that with your spouse. You can find another person, maybe like a counselor can talk that through. So some of the things that come to my mind would be, do you okay, you're coming to me. You're saying, you know, I want forgiveness. I have confession, okay? I would say like, I want I want to extend forgiveness to you, but I also like that's a slow process. I want to see from you that there are actions on your part that, that indicate that you really mean it. So do you have accountability software? Are you willing to have other people email that to other people? I love the accountability system that Covenant Eyes offers. Are you willing to have someone from our church in spiritual leadership? Someone who is from. That's another believer. That's a friend. Maybe me, if the wife wants to be in on that. I'm a huge fan of that. That doesn't work for every couple. So that's something you could think through. But would you be willing to have me receive those emails just to see what your online activity looks like? Would you be willing to take a break from social media? Maybe social media has been a place that's been a temptation for you. Do you have maybe a job where you're interacting really regularly online, on social media? Would you be even willing to find a new career path? I just think when Scripture talks about that radical repentance where we cut off an arm or we pluck out an eye, I would want to hear from this person that that they really mean it, and that pleasing the Lord is more important to them than than their privacy, or than this career or job that they like right now. And then I think once you're seeing that and if you're seeing a heart that's humble and a heart that's open and a heart like not a secretive person, there are ways that you can watch over time and just see that a person really is indicating they want they're not perfect, they're going to still struggle, but they're wanting to to inch towards Jesus. And and their heart is humble and desires to worship him. And then I think that's the place where we say, okay, like I do want to extend mercy. I have been hurt, but I see the work that you're putting in. I see that you really do want to repent of this. And so, yes, I want to extend forgiveness. But I think maybe where we get it wrong sometimes is we think that forgiveness is just a simple like, yeah, I forgive you. And then we move on without saying, like, let's, let's walk through this slowly. Let's put a pause here. And let's see if you're willing to do the things it takes. That is some great wisdom. And you know as people think about the journey and I think it's probably different for everybody. But it is a process and it does take time. Often you know we live in a world of instant gratification. We want quick fixes. But this is something that will take some work and some time. Of course the Lord can do miraculous things in a, you know, blink of an eye, but most of us have to walk out that process. Can you talk to us a little bit about the journey itself? I mean, for you and your husband, how long did the process of healing and restoration take for you, and what does that look like for our listeners as they begin those journeys? Yeah, I really I think that's going to be different for every couple. I think it really depends on, you know, did did this person look at pornography for a couple times over the course of a month and then come and confess it? And really hasn't struggled since? Or has this been a struggle? You know, I started looking at pornography when I was eight years old, and now I'm 28, and the Lord is really convicting me that this is a pattern that doesn't please him. And I'm realizing for the first time I want freedom from it. So I would say to a couple it it just really depends on the depth of the struggle and the length of the struggle. It was the husband. Did he come forward and share this of his own accord, or did she discover this? And he really had no intention at that time of even sharing with her. I think that's going to make a big difference in the healing process. But I will say that having having a counselor, having a pastor, having someone regularly involved, especially in that initial where pornography has been a really regular part of my life and I really want to just break free from its clutches. Having someone regularly involved in that process and walking you through it, and someone who has experience with people who struggle with sexual sin, I think is going to make a huge difference. And and what that's going to look like for the couple. So I would strongly I would strongly advise that if you don't already have a good counselor in your life, that that would be a step I would take right away. Absolutely. Those are good recommendations as as you kind of went through this yourself, what were some of the ways that your husband, was supportive to you during the healing process? Yeah. The most the most incredible thing he did for me was lamenting with me. He gave me the freedom to come to him and say, this is a way that your sin impacted me. And he was willing to receive that from me, to cry with me about that, but just to be broken as I was broken and in pain. For him to be broken over his sin was one of the most healing things that he did. And I think, I think that's a beautiful picture of humility, right? It's so easy. I know for me, like when I sin against someone and I get to the point where I confess it, I kind of want it to be over, you know, like, okay, I said it, let's move on. But for him to to be slow and patient and to go at my pace and say, I have hurt you, I want to hear about how my sin has impacted you. Was it the most meaningful thing he did? That is beautiful. That's really good. So as we think about, you know, accountability, you mentioned this earlier about the the important role that it plays in this path. And you know, you mentioned things like, you know, we have to be willing to, you know, forego some of that privacy and let people into our activity and see what we're doing. And that's the beauty of accountability is it kind of removes all of that secrecy so that we can be open and transparent. But what are some other things or ways that accountability is so valuable to this process? And how did you guys work that out with your your journey? So the way I think about accountability for a Christian especially, is accountability does not change a person's heart, ultimately. And that's really what we're going for in the whole grand scheme of this process is true heart transformation, which that's the work of the Holy Spirit. That's not the wife doesn't change her husband's heart. The the accountability software, the accountability process doesn't change his heart. The spirit does that. But I think pornography is so ubiquitous these days, and I can have pornography in a second. You can have pornography in a second. And so what accountability does for us is it creates a little bit of space, a little bit of pause between us and our temptation. And I genuinely believe that giving that space is just an opportunity for the spirit to move and to say, hey, remember, if you do this, someone's going to see it. But that's not the point, right? It's not really that someone else is getting the email. That's then a reminder of the spirit saying like, the Lord is going to see what I do. And ultimately my desire is to please him. And I want to get to a place where I I'm so in love with the Lord, and I'm so in line with his purposes for my life that I don't even desire pornography anymore. If that's the goal, someday that we could get to that point. And certainly when we're in heaven, we are going to have that with him, that perfect union with him. But while we're here on the earth, we're going to struggle. And so just allowing space between me and that, that sin that I might be tempted to do is going to make space for him to move. And I so I like to think of accountability not as an invasion of privacy, although it is, but I think of it as actually a really beautiful gift from the Lord. And a provision from him. I love that. That's great. So good. Well, you know, there are a lot of, wives out there that know that their husbands are struggling with pornography, but the husband is not fully committed yet to making the change. And that can be a very precarious situation for wives. So what advice do you have for them during that period where the husband is just not ready or not committed to make change, but obviously the wife is, hurting and being hurt in this process. What advice do you have for her? That's really that's really the hardest place to be in this whole this whole scenario, isn't it? Like that? That is the most difficult. And so I'm thinking, if this woman was in front of me right now, the first thing I would want to do is just give her a hug and say, I'm sorry that you're hurting. And I the thought of having a spouse who would so disregard his care for you and his love for the Lord and and his desire to be a leader in your family is incredibly painful. And I don't even think I can overstate how painful that would be. But I would say to her, the first thing she's going to need to do is have a courageous resolve and a love for the Lord that says, my desire to please the Lord is number one most important in my life. It's more important to me than my family's image. It's more important to me than job security. It's more important to me than my husband's happiness and then I think then, if that's her stance, that pleasing the Lord is the most important thing, then she can ask herself, what is the most pleasing thing to the Lord in this situation? What would it look like for me to honor God? So I think the first thing I would say to her is she would want to bring spiritual provisions to her children. I would just be assuming if her husband's in a place where like pawns, not a big deal. I don't really want to change. He's also not going to be in a place where he is nurturing the children in the Lord, teaching them the scriptures, praying with them, encouraging them to love the Lord is setting an example for them, maybe even is. Is he committed to taking them to church and having, you know, a body of believers around the family? So I would say to her to commit to bringing spiritual provisions to your family. And that could be as simple as we read a Bible verse every day or a few verses and we talk about it and we pray together, and we do that at breakfast table, or we pray together at night before we go to sleep. Or if we don't have a church family, we look for a church in the area that's a loving community that believes God's Word and teaches it. And then second of all, I would say that she needs to tell somebody about this struggle and that somebody needs to be a wise person who loves the Lord, and she just needs to go to that person and tell them her whole story, like, just pour your heart out. This is what's going on with my husband. This is where I'm at. I don't know what to do. I need help if she wants to. She could take a copy of my book and say, could we read this together? I'm really hurting. And I, you know, I want to know how to please the Lord in this situation. I'm not even really sure what that looks like right now. Could we read this book together and talk about it? So I would say those would be some places to start because you can't force someone to take on accountability. Right? But what you can do is you can get help for yourself. You don't have to sit in silence and let him treat you this way and not tell anybody. You can get the care that you need, even if he's not willing to get help. That is good advice for our listeners out there. I know we're just scratching the surface. There's so much packed into this conversation, and I know we could continue and we're coming to the end of today's episode, but I do want to offer some hope, to our listeners. And I also wanted to point them to your resources and how they can get connected with your book and even the course that you have in the victory app. So can you first start with, how they can get connected to you, your book and, some of the resources that you mentioned earlier? Yes, absolutely. So my book is Reclaim Your Marriage, Grace for wives who have been hurt by pornography. There's my book, and then my husband's book is Redeem Your Marriage Hope for husbands who have hurt to print pornography. And you can follow, me on social media. On Instagram, it's Jenny Solomon, 2023. And then my my course on the victory app is, of course, on lament. And that would be a great place today. I would say, if you are coming to this and you're hurting because of your spouse's sin, that is going to be a walk for you. I believe it's a two week course where you walk through different. I took different psalms and just talked about how can we lament the brokenness in our marriage? And so that would be a great place to start today. That's a free resource available, that's been made available to you by Covenant Eyes. That's amazing. And we'll be sure to put links in the show notes for our listeners so they can get to both of those resources. And also, we'll put a link to the course in the victory app for you all as well. In closing today, Jenny, I know that, you know, you have so much wisdom and your journey is inspirational to many out there that are feeling very hopeless at the moment and wondering, can my marriage be redeemed? Can we get through this? But your story offers us a glimmer of that beautiful, redemptive hope that the Lord can make all things new again. And so with that, I would love to just close today's episode with some encouragement for our listeners out there. Would you mind, sharing something that's on your heart that would inspire our listeners with some hope? Absolutely. And I'm so glad you said that, because one of our goals in writing this book is we wanted to say we didn't want to minimize the hard things we wanted to say. Our marriage was very, very broken, but we also wanted to say, and look what the Lord has done. And to me, I would just say, if you are worried about bringing your story into the light and you're worried about what's going to happen if a few people in my life know about this struggle, I just want to say to you, I had that fear, I think, multiplied on a on an even greater level to think what's going to happen when not just our accountability partners know which they did. We did have those people in our life, but on a greater scale, like when a lot of people know about our struggle, what's that going to look like for us? And I just want to say that the response has been overwhelmingly positive, that the Lord does beautiful work through broken, humble people. And so I just want to say to you, if you are in that place of brokenness right now and humble before the Lord and and you're praying, God, please bring my spouse to that same point. He can do anything. He can take the most broken story, and he will use it for his glory. And not only that, but he can use it to bring other broken people to himself and so on. This on this journey, I just want to say like, I can't, I can't have imagined a better, a better outcome of our story, that God would take something that for so long was a secret. And now he uses it to help people who are hurting. And I know, I know that he can work in your story, too. That is absolutely and inspirational and also, thank you to you and your husband for your willingness to share your testimony and and your journey. I think it is so important, as Christians, we must share what God has done in our lives because it offers hope to those who are struggling in whatever space and whatever avenue they are. But Jenny, it has been such a pleasure having you on. Thank you for your great book. I think that is a great resource and we hope to have you back on the podcast in the future. It's so great to have you on. Thanks for joining us today. Thank you. Karen, it was so good to be with you today. Awesome. Well, thank you, listeners for tuning in to this episode of the Covenant Eyes podcast. We hope that you have a blessed day and we'll see you next time. God bless. Take care.