Hey, everybody, welcome back to the Covenant Eyes podcast. I'm Karen Potter, one of the hosts for the Covenant Eyes podcast, and I am joined today by Theo, who is back in studio to record with us today. And Theo, you're really excited about today's interview. I know. I sure am. Thank you for, as always, for letting me co-host along with you, Karen. So we have a couple of, guests here who are very well known in the Catholic world. You have likely seen videos of them on Ascension Presents YouTube channel. It worked for Word on Fire. They have our speakers. Most importantly, they're Catholics. They're a wonderful married couple, with children. And, they're here today to talk with us about, a wider range of topics. Bobby and Jackie, angel, Bobby and Jackie, thanks for joining us today. And, welcome to The Covenant on this podcast. So for those of, for people who might not be familiar with you guys by chance, just tell us a little bit about yourselves. So maybe how you got together and how you started, the great work that you're doing. Yeah, I know. There you go. So both of us, both of us were raised Catholic, but had a real huge conversions in our faith. Around 18 at a Steubenville conference across the country. You know, I'm from California and Bobby's from Florida. And, our journeys were very different. But essentially, you know, I was doing ministry front in college and outside of actually, Bobby was doing Ministry two. We both love youth ministry. We both were corps members. It's funny because at some point we could have met, at this one summer camp that I was at every year, Life Teen Cove in Georgia. And Bobby was a corps member, and his group came, but he could never go because he couldn't get time off of work for being a lifeguard. And so we could have met earlier. But the Lord had a plan that we would meet. Said no. Yeah, it wasn't time yet. And so we met in 2011 at the Theology the Body Institute in Pennsylvania. The only problem was at the time, the first time I met Bobby, he was in seminary, and I was like, oh gosh, Lord, you always take the good looking ones like, stop, please take me to leave some of them for us. So anyway, so we met. What was cool about that is it really allowed us just to be friends and not have, you know, it was just like allowing me to love my brother in Christ like he was my brother in Christ. I really wanted the best for him. And so we had this friendship. And the next time we met at theology, the Body Institute was about a year and a half later, and at that point, Bobby was his discernment had changed and he was we always joke that he was like, all right, Lord, I feel like I'm called to marriage, but you need to give me a sign that needs to be loud and blond. And I'm like, you know, so, so we met and yeah, it was so funny because my heart. I always wanted a husband who I could do ministry with, and it just was. We both have a heart for for ministry and for sharing the Lord with people. And so we got married and we have five kids, but we still continue to speak together and sometimes separately, but also together about different topics like theology, the body and kind of just anything we now speak from, like high school all the way till like to parish missions where people are like 99, you know, so all ages. Yeah. It's been beautiful to watch the ministry change as the years go on. We never thought we'd get involved in video ministry, but Jackie had made contacts at Ascension, and they wanted to build out beyond just father Mike Schmitz, who we all know and love. And so we've been doing videos for them for a number of years now. And, I taught at an all boys Catholic high school for about ten years, the first ten years of our marriage. And so the issues of chastity, the the problem of pornography, very much like, evergreen topic to get into and even the blessing of like how our ministries all continue to build each other up over time. I was in seminary and I had an on off battle with pornography for a number of years. And I remember there was a grace bomb moment in my seminary journey where I realized, I, I just want this out of my life. If I'm a spiritual father or if I'm a biological father, enough's enough. And it really was, the accountability of seeking that out through my brother seminarians now who some of whom are my brother or brother priests, and using covenant Eyes as a pivotal program to just get that digital accountability in my life so that for the sake of my vocation, which I didn't know what it would be at the time. So even like how like the rising tide lifts all ships. It's beautiful to see as we've become more seasoned aka old when I did not have so much gray hair in my early YouTube videos. It's beautiful to see what the Lord is doing and continues to do and how now, like just the generations coming up, what has taken root and what is continuing to bless, people around the world that's incredible. I love that you shared your story and what a unique journey God is. You know, he is amazing, but he also has a bit of a sense of humor because, you know, you think you know where your life is going. And sometimes he directs us somewhere else, and it ends up being the most beautiful thing that we never could have seen coming. So I just love that. Thanks for sharing that you guys and your, work. You talk about everything. I mean, there really is no subject that you don't cover. You talk about marriages and how to build strong, faith centered marriages, parenting. You talk about cultural issues, you talk about everything. How are you guys using all of the topics that are relevant to people nowadays, but tying them back to biblical truth? How are you incorporating that into everything you do, and what kind of study and prep do you do for that? I mean, it helps that Bobby and I both I mean, even since we were in college, like when I had my conversion, I just wanted to get my hands on anything I could. I wanted to learn everything I could about my faith. And I started reading the Bible for the first time, memorizing scripture. I started reading the catechism and, you know, kind of reading every Catholic apologetics and that that also went along with our formation just in ministry, which is the experience of being with people. And as you journey with people and you learn more stories, you learn, I mean, gosh, the things I've heard in the last 20 years of doing ministry have broken my heart of like, even when I work with teenagers or middle schoolers, I'm like, man, there are things that these kids no one should ever have to experience at the age of 12 or like like by the age of 16, there are kids who have had more trauma in their life, more. It's just so even the experience of ministry that we have walked with a lot, a lot of young men and young women, and then also, we both love our Catholic faith. I mean, Bobby then was in seminary. He he got his bachelors. And I mean, besides your bachelor's in English and, you know, like, we both had our own, like, then he got a bachelor's in philosophy and theology and a master's in theology. And so we both love reading. All of which is super, super practical. Yeah. To become the best barista at the local coffee shop. Right. English. Philosophy, theology, history. You have a minor in history? Yeah. I got the best barista out there. So for us, we just we're we're big nerds. I mean, we love reading. We love our faith. And so that just kind of went along with the experiential part of I talk a lot about relationships. And so the more people I encountered, the more young women, the stories that I heard, I was like, oh my gosh, like, and thank God for Pope John Paul. That really gave us this framework of theology, the body. It not only changed our lives, but it continues to change lives of like learning how how do we be human? How? What does it mean to be a human? What does it mean to love and love in a proper way? So for us, when it comes to prepping for videos and stuff, a lot of the stuff is just stuff we have learned over the last 20 years. And then sometimes we need to brush up on stuff or just depending on the, the topic. It just it just depends, you know. I think Jackie and I also both love that that theme of integration and being human, because it's not about being compartmentalized and segmented. And to be a person of faith means you're saying no to the rest of life. Like, I love video games, and I wrote a book about like, can you be a disciple of video games? I love hiking and nature. And the Catholic Church this year is Canonizing two young people who Carlo Akunis and the first millennial to be declared as saints who play video games, coded. I made websites Pierre Giorgio for somebody who died 100 years ago, who loves hiking and pulling pranks on friends, and both young Italian men who died before they were married, before they were in a vocation proper, but loved the Lord and said yes to the whole of life. So I think Jackie and I also come from backgrounds where maybe we were maybe too immersed in the world, or sports, or entertainment, but also know that to say yes to Jesus is to also purify and find the good in a lot of these things. Like it's not about just hard no's across the board, it's about being fully human. And Jesus transforms the best of what we're looking for in a lot of these things. And this includes things like the internet, things like video games, entertainment. There's a good we're seeking underneath it. So even when it comes to chastity to, to for both of us to have been on an individual journey and intellectual journey, but also getting to the heart of what am I really looking for? And how am I being called to love rightly? Thank you for sharing all of that. One thing I would love is the chance to, ask you, Bobby, is, speaking one former seminarian to another. Actually, how do you feel that the the do you feel that the seminary actually was a good preparation for marriage and parenthood? And if so, and they say it is, right. And it is nice that, Bobby and I can both attest that God gives some of the good looking ones back, but, I would say how, how do you think it prepared you for marriage and parenthood and for all the work you're you're doing now? Oh, there was a class we had to take where the whole first semester was active listening. And I wish every husband had to take that class. I'd be amazed. That they called it pastoral counseling. Mandatory. Yeah. So we thought we were going to learn how to fix people now. But you got to imagine a room full of 30 plus guys, all ages, being taught how to listen and how frustrating that was. But the whole dynamic of we can't fix people. You show up, you listen, you be attentive, and you can help direct and guide. But also a person is not looking to be fixed. They're looking to be heard in a company. So there is there was so much in my seminary years of getting over myself and your four majors and your teachers, and you're just getting stretched. You're getting evaluated, which is not fun. Like not just your grades. Like you as a man are getting evaluated. And you may think you're awesome and you're God's gift to the church. And they're like, yeah, we see some room for growth. And that's not always fun to receive. So totally like, I wish every man could have some kind of seminary like boot camp of that time away, giving that to the Lord and trusting yourself, going deep not just like surface level band aid solutions to your problems, but let's get let's get to the roots of some of these wounds and problematic behaviors so that you're not bringing them into a marriage. I thank you for sharing that. I just wanted to talk about that because, you know, all of us have, a past, and that can consist of just thinking life was going to turn out one way and having to turn out another, or even our own woundedness or bad choices we've made. But, a lot of times we see that it all works for good, and there's often so much that we can take from it that benefits our life now. And so this is just if you got any if there's any young men listening like, you know, give it a try, whatever, whatever you, wherever you ultimately end up, everything you've done leading up to that point, well, you'll find plenty of things that will benefit you, even if it's only the mistakes. And be not afraid, because I think there's the lie placed there by the evil one that the Lord wants to take from us. He wants to make us into boring statues. He wants to suck the life out of us. He doesn't know our hearts like we do. It's like he knows our hearts better than we know ourselves. And you're not missing any time. Like you're not going to miss your vocation. You're not going to lose time by giving time to the Lord. And whether that's missionary activity, whether that is time discerning the priesthood or just being single in the world to not grass. And we'll talk a little bit about this, like how the culture we're taught to grasp pornography naturally teaches us to I take what I want, when I want it, like that's what it's training us for. So we have to actively work against that to surrender and say, Lord, your ways better help me to be patient and you transform me and my stubborn heart. Yeah, and I'm grateful. I mean, as a wife, I'm so grateful for those years he had in seminary. And, I mean, I jokingly always said, it's like, Lord, if I could be a nun, but I'm not called to be a nun because I just started being a sister. And, you know, like, I really could pray all day and I go to adoration all the time, go to daily mass. I'm like, if I could be a nun, but I'm not called to be a nun. I need a guy who could be a priest that's not called to be a priest. And here comes Bobby. But I'm grateful for those years again. I'm grateful he got. It was those years that he routed pornography out of his life before we even met. Like that was. That's such a gift. And then. Yeah. And then also just the growth that he had in information and in therapy, like, it just brought us to a place. And the classes he took on active listening. You got what? What would you say? Just I'm very I'm very grateful for that time of formation that I wish. I wish every Catholic man or woman like, had some great years of formation. You just said, how do you be human again? How I spend time discerning religious life, too. That's that's good. That's great. Kudos to you, Bobby, for your ability to kick the pornography habit while you were in the seminary. I couldn't, it took after that, but, you were able to. So kudos to you, my friend. Absolutely. Well, with that, I want to kind of pivot our conversation because you guys mentioned you have five children, which that is amazing. And certainly with children, you understand that the digital landscape out there certainly is impacting parents and children alike. So talk to us a little bit about some wisdom that you guys have gleaned over the years of raising your children and how to navigate technology. And where does that boundaries and what things you're kind of installing in your family to keep your kids safe and healthy online? Yeah. So it starts at a really young age in the sense of even just affirming the goodness of their body. So like, we want our kids to know their bodies are good, like what their bodies are for. So even when they're little, I mean, calling their body parts by the right names when they're in the bathtub or like, you know, kids play with themselves, okay? We don't play with our penis or vagina because they're not a toy, you know? So like, again, they're they start learning from a young age what their body parts are, what they're for. And a very non shame, non shame based way. Like we want them to know their bodies are good. And so preparing them for I mean so like even the talk like the talk is a bunch of talks like leading up to that about their bodies. And gosh I mean we've already talked about like the difference between men and women are like they watched we watched Spider-Verse. It was into the Spider-Verse and that the word puberty and they're like, what's puberty? And I was like, well, when someone becomes a boy, becomes a man or girl becomes a woman, and then, you know, you just flesh out things as they ask. They're asking questions. So stuff like that. So now when it comes to technology, we, I mean, with our with our youngest, we were very or sorry with our oldest, we were very like no screens before too. And now now that you have when you have five kids and your oldest are playing Mario Kart, you know, and then the youngest is like, these are not even two year old. He's like Mario Kart age like you think it's so anyways. But we do have specific times of like we homeschool and then when I'm getting dinner ready, that's like their their TV time. And then we have like Tuesdays and Thursdays and like family video game night. Right. So because when we, we got, we received the switch from Bobby's parents, we were like, okay, we need rules around this. Like, this is not just you're going to go play. Our kids do not have their own iPads. Like the kids can play certain games on our phones, like word scapes or whatever, just certain things. They are not allowed to go on YouTube by themselves. And what's good is I've had this conversation. So our two oldest are girls, and they are ten and a half and nine, and I've already I've read the books, the good pictures, bad pictures with them. And so they know, you know, like, if I ever see anything into mom, dad. And, but they're really good together because they also, I think if anything like that happened, the other one would be like, oh, you know, they would, they would say something. So we have rules around technology. The only time that we have like a no holds barred iPad or movie time or screen time is like literally when we're on a plane or when we are on a car ride, like a really long car ride is the only time that we're like, all right, here's another movie. We can watch a movie. But even then, those are movies we've watched. And so my kids also know when it comes to new movies, they come to me and say, mom, can we watch this movie? And I will Google the movie and I will like, look at parent reviews. I will also Google like LGBT with it because I want to see like, what are what's in these movies and are they trying to show. And there have been times I've told my kids like, I'm sorry, you can't watch this. Why? Because they're trying to tell you that something is really, really good when it's not like this is. And they're doing it to children. This is not adults like this is they're trying to insert in there or, you know, sexual themes or whatever they're doing or bad words. And so my kids and I, the especially the older ones, once they get to the age of reason, you know, which is 7 or 8, man, we've had some great conversations about just different topics like, hey, mom, like, why did that guy say he had a boyfriend or a husband and, you know, just talking about the church's teaching, what we believe about that, but also how do we love people like even who do struggle with same sex attraction? How do we love people who do struggle with their identity and don't know if they're male or female? So I love the, there, there is this book that I, the girl was like, there's a difference between our position as a church. Like, what's our position? What do we believe and what's our posture towards people who struggle with that or who deal with that. And so like, I want our kids know, like, here's what we believe as Catholics, but here's also how we treat people. We love people wherever they are. And we always want to bring people to Christ. So yeah, there's a lot of different, like, things that we are doing and yet just constant conversations. So our kids don't, think that their bodies are bad or that sex is bad. So when we do have these conversations, you know, they don't think like, Mom and Dad are ashamed of all this stuff. One of our favorite books is Unwanted by Jay Stringer. And and in that book he talks about how the difference between rigid families and then disengaged families and the amount of kids from those kind of families who do end up looking at porn. And again, when you have either extreme, when you have really rigid families who are like, sex is bad, don't do it. The very puritan is the is to kind of culture. And then you have the very lax like they don't talk to you at all. They're very disengaged. Mom and dad don't talk to you at all. And you're left to do things by yourself. Man, those outcomes are not good. It was like between 77% and 87% of those kids ended up looking at versus when you actually have conversations with your can you very open with your children, and they know that they can come to mom and dad about anything. They can ask about anything. There's nothing off limits. They can ask questions about their bodies. They can because which we do. Like, if anything, I'm like, hey, let me know if there's anything going on here. They're like, come talk to mom and I'll help you, you know, so that open line of communication is super, super important. And then even with technology, I mean, do you want to add anything else like that? We do know some families have like home, like internet. Software. Yeah. Like house wide blockers and stuff like that. We don't we just are very like mindful of what they're watching and keeping that, like knowing like you're only playing at certain times and. There's only one TV. I mean. We only have one. We have one TV in the house. They're not allowed on, you know, an iPad or our phones free reign. And knowing too, like it's the warmth and the empathy like that, we're trying to model that, that it's not the body is something to be ashamed of. And even like watching kids are always watching their parents reactions. And if I bring something up and we get super uncomfortable, if we get super don't talk about this, then they're hearing, well, I can't talk to Mom or dad about this topic. I've got to go to my friends. I've got to go to to cousins or elsewhere. So it's also do and doing the work of like where does where do I need healing and where do I need to be purified and where do I need to have this vision of the goodness of the body? How like the dangers that are out there and protecting my family, not necessarily sheltering them for their entire childhood because I think there are like age appropriate conversations to be had of the dangers that are out there, but also guarding their innocence as long as possible, which is is a lot. It's tiring to be vigilant, and. I will say this is going to be massively different between if you homeschool or if your kids go to school, because if your kids are in school, these conversations need to happen way earlier, because I can't tell you the amount of parents who have told me, oh yeah, my kid was on the bus and they're ten, and they had porn shoved in their face on someone else's phone. Like when your kids go to school, these you you have to have conversations super early versus like, our kids are homeschooled. We know the technology they have. Their most of their friends who are also homeschooled do not have phones like so. They don't have the access to that kind of stuff. And then I'm talking to the moms of like, what? Have you talked to your kids about? Something like, what are the talks you've had? You know, so it's it's going to be hugely different if your kids are in school. Those conversations need to happen so much earlier when it comes to pornography, when it comes to, even even sex, like, again, as a parent, you want those conversations to come from you first. And so often we never receive those conversations from our parents. So a lot of times people don't feel equipped. One of the two of the best books that you could get about these topics are Doctor Julia Sandusky. Her two books are How to Talk to Your Kids about Sex and How to Talk to Your Teens. Or start, I think it start talking to your kids about sex and how to or start talking to your teens about sex. And it goes through puberty. It goes through pornography. It goes through everything in a Catholic lens. And they're really, really, really good. She even gives you like the scripts, like when you don't know how to say things she like, literally gives you. Here are scripts that you can say. And the main point is the parents should always be the primary source of all information. The parent should be the expert on these topics. Their friends should not be the expert like you as a parent should be the expert. Your kids should know that and they can come to you about anything, and and feel comfortable to do that. Yes, absolutely. One of the things I'd love to hear you guys elaborate on a little bit is something that comes up, we hear about it a lot of covenant eyes, from parents, from priests, from clergy. And it's that line between making sure that they are well informed in a way that's appropriate to their age and guarding their innocence. So what do you think is that? And by the way, I'd love to feel free to draw from your experience both as parents as well as educators, youth ministers, what have you. What do you think that line is between like, they're informed, but they're still innocent? If that question makes sense, or how do we, you know, keep them properly informed while still guarding their innocence? Because I feel like some people would equate as soon as they learn about even if they hear the word pornography, they've lost their innocence right there or heard the word sex. They've lost their innocence right there. I don't know that that's true. But tell me, how would you approach that line? Or, you know, even talk about the distinction between being properly informed or losing. Yeah. I mean, and I would counter that, that there are parents out there who are very fear based. They think, like, if we even tell girls about their bodies and their cycles, like, oh my gosh, they're going to be sexually active and they're going to I'm like, that's the two different things. Like knowing about your body, being educated about your body is completely different than being a manipulator who manipulates that information and then goes, have sex. Like that's two different things. But there are people out there who are so afraid that if I share this information with my children, it's going to ruin their innocence. But like, even when we've talked to our kids about pornography, it's like it's I like again, good pictures, bad pictures. What is the difference? And then you will definitely recognize, like when your kids start asking certain questions like, well, how does that happen? I mean, I when I was pregnant with our last baby, and I think John, our little boy, was five at the time, he was like, how does the baby come out? And I mean, and just very matter of factly scientifically was like, well, the right now the baby's in my uterus and is going to come out of my birth canal, out of my vagina. And he's like, okay, you know? And so it's like when we don't ascribe shame to something they don't ascribe shame to something. But if we get all frazzled, they see like, oh, I parent, I guess there's something bad about this. So even even with my daughters and they're approaching this age, we are going to have the conversation. This is I mean, this is just kind of the the funny part is, you know, when you're homeschooling, you can kind of wait till maybe about 10 to 13 to really talk about, like the mechanics of sex. And I think it's always going to shock children. But we, you know, we have friends that told their kids and they were like, oh, thank God. They had like five kids. I'm like, oh, thank God you've only had to do that five times, you know? So I think it always is a little bit of a shock. But I'm trying to prep my kids by even just talking about, hey, in the, in the, in the mammal world, this is you always need like what you females have. Females always have eggs and male always have sperm like or seed. You know, like even when we've done, like when we did pollination with our we had pumpkins like years ago and I was like, hey, look, there's a male flower. And the male flower has pollen and we need to pollinate the female flower. So like, even in those things that kids are learning, oh, okay, there's male and female and this is what you need to make new life. So as often as we can make those connections in their brains building up to this conversation of in, in human life and in reproduction within plants when it comes to animals. And this is how things work. And then, yes, I think they might be a little shocked at the mechanics of it all. Like when you actually say, this is how it works. They're like, oh gosh, like that. Okay, well, thank God again, you've only had to do that five times. But and then and then as they get a little older and this is why I feel like Doctor Julia's books are so good because she kind of gives you an age appropriate, like as they get older, into their teenage years, then you start talking about, well, what happens along with sex, the pleasure part and your what's happening in your hormones and in your cycle that's going to affect this. Like because at that point they may not understand like, oh, the reason people have sex is because it's pleasurable. They may not understand that. Yet. You don't have to divulge that yet. So but I will say by the time here's the thing I always tell people is like by the time they're in high school, especially if they are in school, if you have not had these conversations by the time they're in high school, it's too late. It is way too late. Like, I know so many parents who send their kids to Catholic schools who their kids are in high school and they think, oh, well, I haven't had a talk. I'm like, oh, it's too late. Their friends are already telling them everything. In fact, their friends are already having sex and they're already looking at porn, maybe shoving an interface. But you are already now. Now, granted, it's never too late to have these conversations, and I feel like a lot of the good advice is if you have not had these conversations as a parent, you bring it up to your kid and say, hey, you know, I'm sorry we never talked about this and I want you to always feel comfortable with me. I know we should have had this conversation earlier, but if you if for any parents out there who their kids are in school, in high school and have not had these talks, it is your friend. Guess what? Their friends are educating them easily. No doubt about it. Their friends are educating them or porn is educating them. Like this. This is this is the thing is like by high school, these conversations need to be had, especially if they're in school. But, yeah, it's like always wanting to have that open, open line of communication. Anything else going on your mind? Oh, there's a lot going in my mind. Shame. You know, like that. What I said earlier about knowing ourselves and, and our own resistance, if we are as parents, are resisting having the conversation with our kids, it's like, well, why? And maybe it's because there is some shame that I carry with it. Maybe there's I never had the talk myself. I was never given it. I have no idea how to do this. Be not afraid. Like I wish my parents had tried a little bit more than just signing the fifth grade waiver to like they watched. Show me a video and give me a stick of deodorant. And apparently I know all I need to know with the VHS. Yeah. You're changing body. Yeah, like I wish. Yeah, I wish they had. As awkward as it may have been, I wish there was an attempt, because even just that. Like I care about you enough to awkwardly stumble through this. Because if we don't, the world is happy to educate our kids for us, and not necessarily in a life giving vision of love that were made for. Yeah, that's so true and such good wisdom. I we run into parents all the time that, you know, maybe didn't know how to have these conversations. So they waited. And then when high school hits, you know, their child has already been exposed and now they're trying to backpedal and figure out, oh my gosh, now what do I do? And and there are still things you can do. And I love that you guys talked about just going to your child and being honest, like, hey, I, I screwed up. I should have talked to you about this sooner, but I'm here for you. And you know, I'm learning and I'm sorry. I mean, there's so much to be said for being humble about our mistakes. Let's let's kind of pivot a little bit and talk, a little bit about some of the, the work that you guys do in your podcast and your writings and Ascension talk to our listeners about, you know, what they can expect if they go check out your content, what they can hope to glean and where do they find all the content? Yeah. So we we talk a lot about Pope John Paul theology, the body. That's where we met. That was huge in our formation of, you know, we all have we were made in the image and likeness of God who is love. And we all desire to love and to be loved. And so how do we love properly? And really, Christ is the answer of he gives us this model of sacrificial, self-giving love. He is, it says in Scripture, we love because he first loved us like we only know how to love because of how we were shown what true love is. And so when we talk to young people when it comes to dating and relationships or whatever, what it means to love, or even when we talk to parents or married couples, Christ is always the model. And that Pope John Paul, one of his most beautiful writings, was before theology. The body. He wrote a book called Love and Responsibility, and this to me was such a life changing game changer in the way I looked at people when he said that the opposite of love is use that in the future. And he wrote this in the 1960s. He says in the future we are going to use people as objects of pleasure instead of loving them as persons. And really, so the opposite of love is to use someone as an object. And we see this with pornography, but we even see this how we are taught to view the human person. And so for me, it was like, man, I have to my mind has to change. And this is like Romans 12. It's like we offer up your bodies as a living sacrifice, and we have to renew our mind that even when we look at people, male and female, my goal is not to use them for my own physical or emotional pleasure. My goal is to love them to heaven. And so even with what was beautiful about even when I met Bobby, my job, that kind of detachment like that, he wasn't free to be mine, you know, like, it was kind of like, oh my gosh. Okay, so I have to be touched. I have to love this man first and foremost as my brother in Christ. My goal is to get him to heaven. Yes, he is extremely good looking and attractive, but my first goal is to. Yes, it's for the beard. You know, my first goal is when I look at him is not to look at him as an object for my pleasure, but to look at him as my brother in Christ, who I love, who I want to get to heaven. And so every relationship I tell I talk to this about two young people, like in our relationships with people of the opposite sex or meeting the same sex, like do we use people for our own pleasure or do we actually love them? Do we actually want their good? Do we actually want them to get to heaven? And how do we show that? Or or am I using people? Am I treating my guy friends as stand in boyfriend? Am I using them because I am needy or I have these emotional gaps I need to feel, or do I actually love them and I want to be front like truly have this holy relationship where my goal is to bring them closer to the Lord. So I think it's a complete shift in how we view the world and how we view people. When when we look at it through that lens of the opposite of love is actually to use. Yeah. So on YouTube, under Ascension Presents, you're going to have a year's worth of videos we've done where there's really the through line across a whole bunch of different topics John Paul the second and his presentation of the gospel, the goodness of our human bodies, the goodness of our flesh. Jesus took on flesh in the incarnation, like the theology of the body, is really kind of the lens through so many of our videos, our personal website, Jackie and bobby.com has the books we've written. We love speaking in person like digital ministries. Such a gift. There's nothing like speaking in front of people like flesh and blood people. And so we still love traveling and doing that. But, we've. Jackie loves relationships and dating and and the stuff, and I, I like philosophy and video games and all sorts of other like off the beaten path. But I love what we're made for love. So the dating the relationship stuff is that is the evergreen. We're all looking for love. And so and especially with chastity and in fact, love and responsibility. John Paul the second before he was the pope. In that book he wrote, chastity is probably going to be the word most in need of rehabilitation in the century to come, because it's just been taught is a repressive no. And especially in the topic of pornography, it's like it can't just be a whole bunch of no's and white knuckling it. There has to be a yes to something better. There has to be a yes to loving as I was made for. So chastity is not this repressive? No. The Catechism says it is the integration of our our hearts for body and soul with sin as as torn apart. It's bringing back together so I can love as as I made for. Yeah. And that sin ruptures us right when we sin. And our really like our bodies want one thing and our souls want another. I mean, we've all had this experience of sin where, our bodies are like, oh, I really want to do it. And your soul's like, nope, you shouldn't do it like your conscience, you know, like, I shouldn't do this for your body, like, but I want it. And so, like, that's the rupture of sin. Whereas when we are integrated, we are on the same page. And that's a whole journey that's going to take a lifetime. And so the deeper questions always are to ask, like, why am I doing this? Why do I seek this? Whether it's pornography, whether it's certain relationships, whether it's food. I mean, whatever relationship we have with anything like it, the question is, why do I do this? And that's the always the deeper is going. The Lord wants us to go deeper. The Lord wants to heal us and so with Gpt2, I think for Bobby now, a huge part was knowing like our desires, especially our sexual desires, aren't bad. In fact, they're good. They were created by the Lord. They were created for a purpose. They were created for life giving love. Ultimately, when it comes, especially in marriage, in the generation procreation of children, our desires have a purpose and our desires specifically through theology. By the way we meant to be gift. We are meant to be a gift of self. And he said and got him. It spurs. Pope John Paul brought this line to Vatican two. It's like gaudium. It says 24. It says you can only find yourself. And becoming a sincere gift of self, right? We can only truly know who we are when we become a gift. And so, we are all called to that, whether we are single, celibate, whether we are married, we're called to be a gift and to love as Christ loved and truly to be the hands and feet of Christ like in marriage, like Bobby is. That's how I experienced Jesus so profoundly is through my spouse. He shows me what love is and vice versa. And then with our children, we are showing our children God's love when we love like Christ. So even on our own podcast, which is conversations with Jackie Bobby, we love asking people their testimonies, their stories. You know how it is God shown showing them his love in their lives. So that's kind of for us. It's always like we want we want people to know that God loves them and we want them to know, like, how do we do that? Like, how do we live life as a human? How how do we be holy and still be joyful and live life to the fullest? Christ calls us to live. And so how do like we want people to know what love is? And then how do we do that? Like how do we live that out? And that's beautiful. One of the things that, when you, talked about making a gift of yourself, I thought of, the the pastor of the Byzantine church that I go to who's also an expert on, theology of the body. And he said something interesting. One day he said, yes, I'm going to say this as a priest, and you're going to be shocked by it. Do not pray for an increase in vocations, he said. Pray for the fire to come down and ignite us all. Pray for a fertile soil that will inspire all of us, all of us to want to make a gift of ourselves. And when that is in place, we'll know what vocation to do that in. So if you're ever lost in life, you have one thing make it how to make a gift of yourself. And how do we ultimately do that? Through Christianity, through being followers of Jesus? So, I'm so glad that you guys are out there spreading that message, preaching that, teaching that to others. Do you guys have any, exciting projects coming up next, either with your podcast or any, anything you guys got going on? And then, then number two, what's one final piece of advice you might, leave us with, about striving to live with integrity in your faith as well as online? Yeah, this this year has been a big year with, book releases. I think that's probably the most book. So I had a book come out called Memorize Scripture, and I have to go with my podcast. And then Bobby had a book come out about philosophy, and then you have another book coming up. And I and it looks like I'm way busier than I am. They've been in the pipeline, a different interval, like different speeds, and they're all converging. Yeah. I there's a book this summer with a name. Maria. Press on for Sadie. Pierre. Giorgio for Sadie. Like an eight day personal retreat with him as your guide. That'll be in July. And God is our booking agent. This is. We say, so when it comes to speaking in ministry. And what's next? You'll have to ask him. We're just trying to say yes. In the season we're in to the best of our ability. Yeah. Summer. I mean, we have a nice after lent. Lent was crazy, and it was a lot a lot of travel, a lot of parish missions, a lot of stuff. This month is pretty awesome and chill. And then summer comes up where we have a lot of conferences. But yeah, it's just kind of always this wave that goes with the school year. Any, any life advice that, that you want to leave with. People life advice. As, like a Catholic like me. No pressure. Like something that you you feel like you're constantly being a broken record about people. You you can't give what you don't have. I'll steal this line from Doctor Greg Pitaro, who's the head of Catholic psych, who I'm sure took it from someone else. But, from Peter Cray for someone. But we, we cannot be the engines of our own healing or the healing of our families. We have to let. We have to be loved. And we can't. Will that. Yeah. There's nothing to earn. You just receive it. And so much of, like, why people seek out porn or seek out other unhealthy coping mechanisms is because I don't feel loved. Like underneath it all, I'm stressed, I'm lonely, I'm tired. Yes, but I'm turning to this coping mechanism because I don't feel loved. Just as I am. And it's there's, there's I have to be perfect or I've got to fix myself. Or it's like, just let yourself be loved as you are and. And how people do that. To stop trying. Like, we complicate it and we think I have to be perfect, or I think I have to get all my ducks in a row and it's. Or have to do all these things to earn God's love. Yeah. It's like he already loves you. Like, while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. So he loves you in your deepest sin, just as much as when you walk out of the confessional. Yeah. And when we start to actually receive it, not just hear, not just spit it back for a test. God loves me. When you actually start allowing that to go deep, then it's like the the stuff, the temptations, it starts to lose its power. It starts to lose its allure. It's like, I don't want to settle for that. And and I want other people, I want my family, I want my children to know that too. That you're loved just as you are, not what you get on the test, not how good you are in sports. But we can't give it. We don't have. So it's like, do I know that and believe that that I'm loved. Period. Full stop. Yeah. One of my one of our favorite books. I sell more of his books than any of our own is, doctor Bob shoots be healed. It's such a great book for that. Like, again, to walk through, allowing the Lord to love you and to heal you and to go to those. Because that, again, that was what was life changing for the two of us is when we were 18. For me, it was recognizing I have a father in heaven who loves me so, so much. A lot of us have a lot of father wounds and many mother wounds. And to realize, like we have a father in heaven, we are his children, his beloved sons, and daughters, and that we don't have to earn that. But that's just the nature of our our relationship with our Heavenly Father is how much, how much he loves us. So when that seeps in your heart, it's it's life changing. It changes how you see the world. It changes everything, and then it changes what you're not. I'm like, I'm not willing. I don't want to settle for the dumpster anymore. Like, I know I deserve the best because God is my father and has the best for me. And all will be well. The Catechism says that chastity is a lifelong endeavor, so to not feel, to not fall to hopelessness. If I'm falling again and again, it's it's not a total reset. You're just stumbling up the mountain. And the more you bring in other people, the more you bring in accountability. Again, Covenant Eyes has blessed my life and my vocation. Like I don't know where I'd be without it. So just how the Lord is, is there's a lot of bad stuff on the internet. There's also a lot of beautiful tools and apostle apps that are the Lord is raising up for us to help one another. Yeah, you're just imagine that it's building a muscle. It's working out and working out. It hurts and it stinks and like it's painful, but it's the more you do it, there's this like with virtue, virtue, the more you act and walk in virtue. And even though it's requires sacrifice and it's going to be difficult to say no to certain things, you're building a muscle and it gets easier as it goes. Like that. Virtue keeps growing and it'll become easier as it goes on. Just like it is with working out. That's a great analogy and great wisdom from both of you. Thank you both Bobby and Jackie for joining us today. This has been an amazing conversation. I know our listeners are going to be truly blessed by the wisdom and just the stories that you shared with us today, so we want to thank you and hopefully, our listeners can continue to pray for your ministry and for your outreach and for your work, and hopefully you'll have a nice season of rest during the next month or so so you can get back at it at the conference. I know that's exhausting. So we'll be praying for you. Thank you guys so much. Thanks for having. Us. Yeah, absolutely. We'll see you. Oh, thanks so much for joining me today for the Covenant Eyes podcast. I know our listeners are going to be truly blessed by this episode. Your final closing thoughts for today? Well, I'm just grateful to, Jack and Bobby for, joining us. I'm grateful for, all of the, the work that that you do. And I share a lot of the passion with you guys as well with, theology of the body, with our Catholic faith, especially with, seeing marriages and families be well grateful for your work in that. I mean, marriage and family. That really is the bedrock of civilization. It was Mother Teresa who said, you know, Calcutta is at your house. I was at your backyard. You know, you, so, I mean, if every one of us would just go home and love our family, the world would really be a great place. Just would the church. So thanks for your work and teaching us how to do that. And, and it's an honor for us and for you to to work alongside you to help the world be pure and chaste as well as holy. So, we just want to thank you. And like you said, we'll be praying for you. So God bless you. God bless your five kids. God bless your upcoming ministry. And thank you everyone to for listening to this episode of The Covenant on this podcast.