Hey everybody, welcome back to the Covenant Eyes podcast Karen here. So glad to have you joining me. Rob is back. Rob, how are you? I'm doing good, Karen. Thanks. Good. It's been a minute since we've recorded a podcast. Summer is Flying by. Well, Matt, let us let us introduce you. Most people know you, but our guest today, if you don't know, is Pastor Matt Chandler. Pastor Matt is lead pastor at the village church, in Texas. Welcome to the covenant Eyes podcast. Thanks for joining us. Could you just tell us a little bit about yourself? Yeah. I, been at the village church as the lead pastor for to be 23 years, this December. And so that that's been kind of calling life, also super involved in church planning around the world through the 29 Church Planning Network. Was president for a long time. Now. I'm just executive chairman of the board. So fancy title that just says I work closely with the now president. Really, though, man, my wife Lauren is just deep. Well, prophetic. Beautiful, godly. What a what a gift of a partnership and gospel work. She's been. I've got three kids. They're all like, they're they're getting older and older as they do. I've got my oldest is now married and lives about 12 minutes from us. My, 19 year old is finishing up school. He's in trade school. He'll finish in September. He's still living at home. And then he'll look to, transition out. And then our baby, just got her driver's license, and, she's about to start her junior year of high school, and so that that that's kind of, me, I have a deep heart, for men and women to know and practice, the truth of the gospel. To see it working out, in their day in, day out activities to to burn for the presence and power of God in their lives. And that that's kind of marked, my 30 year run in ministry now, trying to talk about that and preach to that and organize around that and pray for that. And, yeah, that that's kind of me. Good. Well, great. Well thank you. And that really leads us into what we really want to talk about today. As you know, we at Covenant Eyes, every day, day in and day out, we deal with so many people who are struggling, struggling with the sin of pornography and other things. And for so many that struggle is ongoing. It's a long, long struggle for so many people and would love to talk. Have you talk today a little bit about how do we encourage somebody in their faith that is really going through an overwhelming long struggle like this and often doubting their faith? I mean, many of these are professing Christians, but yet they're still struggling. So I want to start out just to kind of address that issue a little bit for all these people who are struggling for so long but really struggling, how does this affect my faith? Yeah, I, I think that I don't think, the Bible's fairly clear, that, we are going to struggle with our faith, throughout our lives. In fact, in a lot of people who give up on the fight, have lost sight. That's the way I kind of try to teach, the village, sanctification or how we become made more and more like. Jesus. It's not up into the right. Like nobody in the history of Christianity has had an up and to the right experience. It really is a series. I like to teach it with the image of like a horizontal coil, laid in front of you, that every high and every low and every battle and every struggle is still moving. You forward towards becoming like Jesus. And so that's the, for me, the encouragement that I want to give anybody is just keep going, keep getting back up, keep moving towards Jesus. And really, the, the victory, that I've seen people walk in, is a mixture of the explosive power of new affection, and, and then, some discipline around, what windows and doors are open. And so what I mean by that, is real true change, transformation, that I've seen in the lives of Christians, whether it's pornography or drugs and alcohol or perfectionism and people pleasing, which can create just as much damage, in a life and in a family, really has to do primarily with, I want to orient my life around an ever increasing affection for Jesus. And so when I think of, that, like I've often said, like the kind of banner over my life and my 33 years of following Jesus is found in Psalm 27 verse four, where David says one thing I ask and all that I seek is that I might dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life, to gaze upon the beauty of the Lord, and to seek him in his temple. And so if you're struggling with the besetting set, I think we've got to ask some questions. Is this, like, are you stumbling or are you in bondage? And regardless of what the answer is, I think if it's bondage, then we've got some significant work to do below the surface. But I think what drives out lesser loves is not just discipline and software that block stuff and good accountability, but a growing affection, that drives out the lesser affection. And I think this is the problem some people have when it comes to fighting against the flesh, is they just try to do it with discipline and accountability, but then you end up honestly, experientially, you become the guy that every time or gal that every time you're in a small group, you're talking about pornography, and then you start going, they're so tired of hearing this, and you start withdrawing from that confession. And those are the men and women that end up giving up. And I don't want you to give up. And so I'm not saying those things are important. I think accountability is super important. I think coveted eyes and and software like that is super important. But if you're neglecting and this is what shame does, this is a now this is the devil's playground right here. God, I hate that loser. But he what he wants to do is keep you away from the Lord. Because the more you go to the Lord, the more your affections for him are going to grow, and the more your affections for Jesus, or hot the lesser loves, the lesser affections lose a lot of power that's out there. That's a long answer to a short question. I love that, and that was great. I think, you know, that kind of leads us to talk a little bit about what Scripture teach us, teaches us about the connection between trials and strengthening our faith. Because oftentimes, you know, we can see trials and setbacks as us failing. And, you know, it's, you know, God doesn't love me. Or we can think all sorts of things. And it's like, actually, in those trials, God is there. So let's talk a little bit about that and how he gives us strength and how he is our strength in those times. So, I mean, you can either do it via narrative. And what I mean by narrative is I like to highlight all the time at the village that no one in the Bible could get hired at the village church, just our background checks going to. I mean, it's going to flag murder and violence and sexual perversion and like, you can't other than Jesus and maybe Daniel, you got nobody like Moses in getting hired here. I mean, you have to go. Hey, tell me about that guy you murdered when you in your 20s. And I heard you freaked out at work the other day. Started smashing stuff with your staff. Like we're not letting him run Kids Village, I can tell you that right now. Or David, a man after God's own heart. The the grimy ness of the Bible exists to give you confidence that there's space for you, right? That that's that's why the book's so grimy. That's why God's always using broken, fallible people. Because that's all there is. And so you're actually even, statistically speaking, you're not alone in this fight. We're lining up really well with a lot of the people in the Bible who are profoundly and powerfully used by God. So you could go about it kind of with the narrative of Scripture. Pick a guy, pick a guy, you pick Jeremiah, you can pick Paul, you can pick Moses, you can pick Noah. You I mean, pick a God. You can't pick Jesus or Daniel. But anybody else in the book, deep, terrible flaws that would more than likely keep them from being hired by any church that does a good background check on their employees. So that's one way to approach it. The second way is repeatedly in Pauline epistles and in other parts of the Bible. They are clear that struggle creates a kind of resilience and perseverance, if you will endure till the end. And that's the big kind of press. Keep getting up. Jesus knew what he was buying on the cross look like. He's not like looking at you. Now I'm going, oh, I so regret dying for this bump since he actually knew you were a bum, which is why he went to the cross. I mean, that's the workspace righteousness stuff that'll really get me frustrated. Like the righteous requirements of the law cannot save anyone. Only Jesus can. Which is why, then, if you're coming off the worst porn bender of your life, I'm telling you, get into the presence of Jesus, seek forgiveness, loop back into your community. Stop creating distance between you and the Lord because the Lord doesn't want the distance. He is producing something in this struggle, in this wrestle that the fruit, when all said and done is, is really beyond your imagination right now, on the bottom of that coil, remember, like coil up and down every high and low, moving us towards him. Right. So. So you could do it. Narrow table. You could do James one. You could do Philippians three. There are all sorts of text that go, no, no, no, expect struggle, struggle. Well don't give up. Endure. Yeah. So true, so true. Good verses. You mentioned shame earlier and we, we see that so often. Shame really just it keeps people in silence. So often they're not confessing. They're not engaging in talking with the community with a body and growing their, you know, talk a little bit about that role of confession in James 516, the confession and the community of growing our faith together through that and why that's so important. Yet no one and I mean no one, I would say it like this. There are no Jason Bournes in the kingdom of God. There's no one man army that can take on all the works of the enemy, and it just doesn't exist. And so the good gift of God's grace, is the people of God. I wish I was get if I'm being, If I'm being honest. Rob, sometimes I get nervous about this question in particular, because I know there's some very unhealthy, legalistic churches where someone could do what the Bible said and not be handled with the grace and mercy that Christ would have us handle them. And so, I, I think the Bible is clear and church history is clear, that confession is a good gift of God's grace to move us out of darkness and into the light. And if you're in a healthy church, confession is met with grace and a moving towards, like I'll often say at the village, you will not confess anything here that makes anyone gasp like we've just been in this too long. I mean, we had a guy, OD'd in one of our bathrooms with a needle in his arm. I mean, we are we? The church should always be a bit grimy. If there's any new birth there. So any new life? If you're really in the mission of God hurting, desperate people are going to be there and hurting desperate people are hurting and desperate. But confession drags darkness into the light. And the promise, we read in the first five verses of the Gospel of John, I think it is verse five that the light has shown in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. So when you confess and on confession, I mean, like, confess it, and and let it be as ugly as it is. And so what, I mean by that is like a real, true, broken hearted, repentant confession might not just be, oh, I've been looking at porn. It might include the type of porn wherever that root of shame is, that's what you want to bring out into confession, whatever the lie is that if anybody knew that I was looking at this type of pornography, then, man, there would be no grace for me. That's the confession. That's when you get the light shining in the darkness, not the ambiguous. Really struggling with lust this week that that's not going to do it. It's not ugly enough. It's not dark enough. It's not the root. But the scriptures call us to the ongoing ethic of confession. Confession is something we do to become Christians. It's a weapon we use to stay in the light and feel free, to approach the God of all creation with no secrets. Not that we would have any, anyway, but we're confessing to God. We're confessing to others. Others become the manifest presence of God to us. They weep with us, they move towards us, and in they're moving towards us. We're reminded that God Himself moves towards us in our sin and brokenness. The longer you hold it in, the longer you're quiet. The longer it's a secret, the more powerful it becomes, and the less likely you are to actually consecrate yourself and confess those things. I was talking to young adults last night, and I was just pleading with them, to kill any baby lions in their lives before those lions become full grown. Like it's never going to be easier than it is right now at 22, come into the light. And this is the role of confession. It moves us out of darkness and into the light. That is so good. And there's something so freeing when we confess and we share those burdens with one another. I mean, it's such a relief to know that we have community in our churches, that we can do that and feel that, and God can relieve that on our, you know, relieve that burden. I want to talk a little bit about, you know, there's a lot of, people that we work with at Covenant Eyes who come into Covenant Eyes. They want to find freedom. They're seeking after God's heart. They are alone, though, because porn has pulled them away from their family or their friends, and it's really caused a lot of havoc. And so they don't have anyone to walk alongside them. They maybe don't feel comfortable confessing yet. Which, you know, there's a call to do that, but how do we help them with, you know, habits and things? How do we exercise that muscle of being vulnerable and confessing our sins? Like, what are some pointers and tips for people that are just scared? Yeah. So there's there's two ways to go about it. The first I would not recommend, but it is a way the first would be I, I just think the Church of Jesus Christ is a good gift, for the people of God. Remember, even the writer of Hebrews like, don't neglect this, don't neglect this. Like, this is your safe spot. This is where you're going to be reminded of the gospel. This is where you're going to find grace. This is where you're going to grow into the fullness of all that Jesus put in you. And so if you've created distance from the people of God, I think first step is close that gap. And so and I'm not just talking about going to church on Sunday in a 2000 seat auditorium where no one's going to see you and you're going to hide out there that's not reentering. Nowhere in the Bible does it tell you to go to church. We're supposed to belong to a group of people. And so move towards move towards a men's group, move towards a women's group, move towards a smaller Bible study setting. Move towards the saints of God. That would be first easy step. All of this, I would say, needs to be baptized in prayer. Lord, I want your freedom. I'm lacking courage right now. Please give me courage. Give me and and then start moving towards. And then as you move towards and you find, trustworthy men, trustworthy women. Then I would, I would begin to invite them in, and then I again, I don't recommend this route. This route takes a lot longer. And, you might get yourself in, in the trap of. Oh, well, I need to be religious like they are. So let me start being religious. Like they are. But if you get in a community where there's a recovery program, you get in a community that's serious about walking alongside people who are struggling and and being committed to love them, well, if you can find that space now we've got the space, the container in which we can confess and we can come fully into the light. And I want to stress the word fully, because what I have found in walking with men is what I was alluding to earlier. Like, there had some like nasty, gross, perverse stuff. But that's not what they're confessing. They're confessing. Well, you know, I was I look at some things on Instagram I shouldn't look at. Well great. But that's not it's not really what's going on. So it's like a partial confession. It might be something you're doing that triggers your move to the deeper, harder, grosser stuff. So I think confession has to be whatever is most shameful in you that the thing you don't want anyone to know, that's got to be the confession. And I think the best route is once you have found those people you rip that Band-Aid off with, those people that have shown themselves to be a safe container. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Staying on that same theme, pastor. You know, we talk with a lot of churches, some are doing very well dealing with this and other hurts of people in, in the church. Many though are still are not many still do not want to touch these kinds of subject, whether it's pornography or just other, traumas and struggles. You know, as you are out talking with so many pastors around the country, you know, what's your sense of this one? Is it getting better? And two, what is your encouragement to pastors and churches to step into this? Much, much harder than we are so far. Yeah. I, I think it's getting better. At least from my. I can't see evangelicalism, but I it feels to me like it's getting better. I what I'm seeing, you know, acts 29 has about 700 churches in it. What I'm seeing, is that we are getting that we do understand that people, this is a tough moment. Like, I'm 51, so I'm not old. Old, but I'm older. Like when I was a kid, like my porn stuff. When it was when I found my dad's stash of magazines. Right. But the the guys that we're dealing with right now, I mean, that unfettered access to the internet as eight year olds like the first exposure to pornography is happening prepubescent. And so now we've got this whole rewiring of brains. We have this whole the the difficulty of this moment for people around sex and sexuality. Man, you got to go back a long time to find it this, this hard, this gross, this available maybe never in the history of the world. This available. I read somewhere that the normal man with an iPhone can see more beautiful naked women in an afternoon than a king 400 years ago. Could see in his lifetime. And. And this is the bondage that men and women are getting stuck in. And so there has to be, if we read the Gospels rightly, if you're a pastor, read the Gospels. What does Jesus do towards the woman caught in adultery? What does Jesus do in Luke seven with the prostitute who came in and was just weeping over his feet? What does Jesus do? With Zacchaeus, the tax collector? The these were really according to their time and maybe even our time. These were deeply broken, perverse people. And what did Jesus do? Jesus didn't have his sharpest rebukes for them. They loved, like the first sentence, and I think it's Luke 15 and the tax collectors and sinners drew near to hear him. Why? Why are the two and the Pharisees and scribes grumbled, right? Like, why are the religious leaders grumbling and the tax collectors and sinners being drawn near? Well, I brother sister, I would just encourage you, if you're leading a church, look out and go, who's being drawn here? Are the tax collectors and sinners being drawn here, or am I just drawing like, religious Somalians or like, Sunday, the Sunday school? Here's a oh, you smell that? That's that's hymns. Man, I love the hymns. Like the the the church is for the people of God. Like, we don't build our services for the lost people. We build our services for the people of God. But what's the message for the people of God? Well, the message for the people of God is still the gospel. Like most of the gospel presentations in the New Testament are actually given to Christians. They're not preached to lost people. It's like Christians need to be reminded whoa whoa whoa whoa. While you were at your worst, Christ died for you. So why don't we have some grace for people who are at their worst? And then I think you have to build an environment where it's okay to not be okay. And I think you have to lead with your own vulnerability. That is amazing advice. And I think it's a fair assessment of kind of where we are, as you know, a church, the big C church. I want to talk a little bit more about the church, just because, you know, you have such an impact and you, you do work with so many pastors and, you know, so many people, what are some strategies that some of the pastors and men's ministry leaders that are listening could utilize in their church to really help fortify and build strong men's ministries, women's ministries where people feel safe talking about these issues. What are some of the things that you've done at the village church and and just in your own ministry? Yeah. So I think the first thing you have to do, is create I've never said this phrase before. It's certainly not a it's not our vernacular, but maybe it would help if you're listening like gospel vulnerability. And what I mean by that is in those environments, we want the Spirit's power present. We want the Word of God present, but we also want to lead everything that like what we're here to do is not hide, but be in the light wherever we are. In fact, I heard, Jamie Winship said, I just thought this was brilliant. So reframed that, you know, confession is actually just telling God the truth, that we tend to think confession is always like, here's my sins. Please forgive me for my sins, but actual, real confession. Just telling God the truth. And so if I think of, like, if I just go men's ministry here, like, we have these fireside chats and then we have these, these things called foxholes. The idea of a foxhole is like, everything's blowing up around you. You're not sure where to go. You're not sure where to do this. You just dive in this foxhole, and. And nobody lives in a foxhole. Nobody wants to stay in a foxhole. You're just surviving in a foxhole, and. And, like, let me give you an example. If you go to a foxhole, there's going to be, four, four, questions that get asked in that foxhole. And the man who's leading it is going to lead with vulnerability. I think they all start with is the first. It's going to be home. Tell me about how you grew up. And now whoever's leading it, they're going to lead vulnerably. They're not going be like, my parents were great. You know, they did the best they could. They're going to talk about me. And I picked up on this. I, this wasn't there. This wasn't. And then we're going to move to a hurt like, what's a significant hurt that would help us understand you? Like, we want to understand you. We want to know you. What's a hurt in your life that that shaped you? Okay. What's a highlight that shaped you? If we're going to understand who you are, give me your. The biggest win that when I look at you and I get to know you, I'm like, I know where that came from. That victory he got when he was a sophomore in college or last week or whatever. And then like, tell us about a hero in your life. Why was he a hero or a hero? And so we found, like, even in something like a foxhole where you put in 4 or 5 guys together, haven't met, don't know each other. Walking through those four questions like write home, hurt, highlight, hero. Now we've got a better sense of you and you've come in because it got modeled to you. Not with just like, the answer your kid gives you when you ask, hey, how was your day? Good. That this is more meant to go. Let me let me pull out of you some things that help you understand the freedom that comes from being more known than just a bunch of dudes sitting around talking about hunting, golf, or why Dak Prescott can't throw a back shoulder fade. Absolutely. Especially in that last one. No. Detroit fan here. Pastor Matt, we I would love just to continue this all day long. It love I love your answers and and just the the depth and, grace of of what you're talking about. But we're getting to the end here. Would love to let our listeners know. How do they find out more information about you, your ministry, your books? If they're looking for that, where would they go? Well, I mean, I think I'm everywhere. Everyone else is. I mean, certainly I have a YouTube channel that hosts, my, podcast, The Overcomers, which is just me interviewing people that have been through difficult things and, they've clung to the Lord from it or through it, and they're kind of on the other side. I never interview anybody that's like 20 years to the other side. I want somebody that's two years to the other side. I just want an honest, gritty conversation, about the dark night of the soul and the struggle. So they can find that on my YouTube channel, Pastor Matt Chandler. They can find that on Spotify. They can find that on iTunes. Really? Wherever that is. Sermons live. There. Yeah. Books are wherever you can buy a book, you can get them on Amazon. You can get them, really at Barnes and Noble, you can you can find my books out there just about everywhere. I'm on Instagram, not on Twitter. Probably. Yeah. I'm not a TikTok guy. I hear that's where everybody is these days. But 51 breaking into TikTok feels I'm not a good dancer, so. It's probably wise to just steer clear of TikTok. I've dabbled over there a few times, and I I'm definitely aged out. I think there's a cap. They don't even scroll. They won't even scroll to 74 where I. Yeah. Oh my goodness. Well, as we bring today's episode to a close, Pastor Matt, would you leave our listeners with just a message of hope and encouragement and maybe a scripture that they should refer to in those times of struggle or just when they're feeling low? Would you mind? Yeah. The first thing I would remind you is you are in a tradition with thousands of years of victory. You are not going to be the one person unless you give up. You're not going to be the one person, that Christ changes his mind about. And so my my appeal to you is keep going. The enemy wants you to quit. He wants you to give up. He wants to sow lies. That this is just your life. And I want to remind you that the the story of scripture, and our history as the Christian faith, it is that people who have gone farther than you, have been redeemed, have been restored and have been used profoundly by God despite their past, maybe even because of their past. That would be my encouragement. Don't give up. Don't lose heart. And then, man, I just want to keep bringing you back to this. My own personal experience is that, my own besetting sins, my own struggles from my own family of origin stuff and my own flesh, really were driven out. Not with my great discipline. Although I'm. I'm a fairly disciplined man. But because I have tended to the fire of my soul when it comes to my affections for Jesus. Like a little game I often play, probably do it twice a year. What's stirring my affections for Jesus Christ right now? What's robbing me of those affections? And what's funny is that robbing list now 33 years of the following him, that there's hardly anything on that list that's explicitly sinful. It's just morally neutral, lesser loves. And so what it would look, what would it look like for you to take Psalm 27 for, David saying, the one thing I'm after and to order your life around stirring and cultivating an affection for Jesus that then makes those lesser loves not as powerful because the greater affection has driven them out. That would be my encouragement to anyone listening. Who's in it right now? Amen. Amen. Well, Pastor Matt, thank you so much for the word today. And thank you for your ministry. God bless them. Oh, thank you guys. Yeah. Into our listeners. Thanks again for watching. Please share. And like this. Will put some of the links in the show notes today. But again look for the next episode of the Covenant Eyes podcast. Take care and God bless. You.