Welcome to The Covenant Eyes Podcast. It's so good to have you back with us. And Theo. Thanks for joining us again. I am really excited about today's conversation. As am I, yes. We have, a very good priest here in this country from the Archdiocese of Indianapolis with us. He's, pretty well known on the internet. His name is father Jonathan Meyer. Father Meyer, thank you for being with us. How are you today? It is a great joy to be, Yeah, with you all. And for those of you who are listening, what a joy. Seriously? To have conversations that are meaningful and powerful. That's what we're supposed to be doing as Christians. So praise the Lord for that. Amen. Father Meyer caught my eye because he is a priest who is not afraid to preach on both this subject of pornography, as well as many others. If you look at the YouTube page for his parish, you will find a couple of homilies, a couple of very good ones on this issue of pornography. And, as those who follow our podcast and our channels know that I, as the Catholic Church outreach specialist, I spend a chunk of my time trying to get parishes, dioceses to at least dedicate one Sunday out of the year to preach about this topic. And even without doing Safe Haven Sunday, Father Meyer has already been doing it. So let's just start with, Father Meyer, can you tell us just a little bit about yourself and how you discovered your vocation to the priesthood? Yeah. So thanks be to God. I was born, raised what I call a typical American family. I had a mom. I had a dad, which, I don't know if that's always typical anymore. These days that I was born, I would lived in suburban life. And the majority of my childhood was spent in Wisconsin. My mom was Catholic, my dad was Lutheran, and I found out that I was pretty good at running. So running really was my life as a child. So much so that, my biggest influences in life were really my coaches. And so when I began asking myself, like, what am I do when I grow up? I was like, I want to be a coach. And in the 1990s, if you want to be a coach, back in those days, the only way that I knew you could be a coach, you had to be a teacher. That is not the case anymore, by the way. But that was the case in the 90s. And so I was like, well, I guess I have to be a teacher. And so I went to to college to really to be a coach. But, I studied, history and communication. And it was when I was in college that some non-denominational Christians really came into my life and invited me to some, like a revival that they were having on campus and praise and worship, opportunities. And it was there that I really felt the love of God for the first time in my life. And within that was also me hearing the voice of God saying, John, be a priest. I never thought about being a priest. Had a girlfriend for two and a half years. I had my whole life planned out about coaching in high school and college. And, it was, towards the end of that that I made ultimately, the decision to say if this is real, that God is calling me to be a priest, then maybe I need to figure in my life out. So that led me on a journey of Bible studies and men's prayer groups and a lot of prayer, which eventually led me into seminary with this burning desire to help people fall in love with Jesus. And, so it's been an amazing journey that I've first felt that experience of the love of God for the first time, back in the fall of 1996. And, been a priest for 21 years. And it's been it's been powerful. Thank you for sharing. Kind of your history and how you got into the priesthood. It's amazing the work that you're doing. And as a priest, I'm sure that over the years you've seen the impact of pornography on individuals in the church. So, you know, talk to us a little bit about your experience with helping people with this issue over the years. Yeah. So, I mean, I, I can admit the fact that pornography was a part of my life, I was first exposed pornography on a Boy Scout trip. We were a bunch of us were messing around at a gas station, when we were gassing up vehicles and a magazine was found. This was. This would have been in the 1980s. A magazine was found in a gutter and everybody's, you know, ripping pages out of it and taking it to their homes. And, that was my first experience when I had my conversion in college. One of my experiences of, you know, trying to draw closer to Jesus was taking the, VHS tapes that were in my college apartment. I had three college roommates and myself, and bringing them to a dumpster and throwing them away, and and this is all before the age of the internet. And as a priest now, clearly, I spend, I hear confessions every day of the week. We do a lot of confession hearing in my parish. We we have 12 hours of confession two times a week on first and third Fridays. And my whole entire priesthood has been very, very caught up in youth work. So my first five years, five and a half years of preaching, I was the the director of youth and young adult ministry for the Archdiocese of Indianapolis. And so I can just say, like, I, I hear about pornography, I see the effects of it, in the confessional, outside of the confessional. And that's really where I think the passion in my heart came, because when you see this, this struggle, this hurt, this wound, you want to do something. And I see it from all different levels. I see the young who are easily being addicted, falling into the trap. I see it in marriages, both ends of the spectrum. Both men or women who are addicted, that want out. I see the grieving spouse who struggles terribly, with their own self-worth, their own image, their own dignity because of the addiction of their spouse. And then I see children who are have the, the effects of a dad who is addicted. And the way that they look at their dad knowing that the addiction is a part of his life. And so I got the opportunity to really see it from all these different aspects. And that's why I'm so passionate about it. It's like it's like it would be like me saying that, you know, alcoholism isn't real or that, you know, addiction to marijuana or crack cocaine isn't real. No, it is real. And it has a huge effect, not just on the individual, but it has a huge effect on all of their other relationships, then their relationships with their family, their relationship with their spouse. It it's and their own, their own self-worth, their own self dignity is caught up in that as well. So that I don't know if that helps explain my journey, I guess. No. That's perfect. Thank you. Thank you so much for, you know, talking to us a little bit about how you've seen this come up in your ministry and we'll dig more into that. Tell us a bit about, but the Catholic Church has to say we know the church teaches that it's wrong, but what does the church have to say about pornography, both in light of God's design for sexuality? As well as, in, in, in light of human dignity. And are there any, influential saints or theologians or, or popes whose teachings have been influential to you in this regard as well? Yeah. Thank you. Theo. And I would actually just like this. The way that I would actually encapsulate that is for me, I had the tremendous blessing of studying in Rome from 1999 to 2003, and at the time, our Holy Father was Pope John Paul the Second, and one of the great gifts that Pope John Paul that I can give to the church is the theology of the body. And the father's body is nothing new. For those of you who are Catholic or for those who are Protestant, the theology body is biblical. Reflections on the beauty of the human person, the importance and the dignity of marriage. And caught up in that is a proper understanding of how we are called to look at the human person. And John Paul the second is not afraid to in many ways go behind the fig leaf and say, this is how God made us, and our bodies mean something, and our bodies communicate a theology. We are made in God's image and likeness. The naked body is beautiful. The naked body is good. But our world and our fallen human nature looks at things quite differently. So I would say the most influential person in my life when it comes to my approach to helping people with pornography is, Saint John Paul the second, my time in Rome was deeply profound in that. But of course, you know, as all Christians, as anybody who reads the book like Jesus heightens Jesus heightens it for us. You know, it's not just, you know, thou shalt not commit adultery. I mean, that'd be pretty easy for everybody. If that was the case. But he said, you know, if you look lustfully at a woman, you have committed adultery. And when we when we look at that, that's not just like, do I look lustfully, you know, at a woman at a strip club that's. Do I look lustfully at a woman? And that could be, you know, either on the internet or off the internet or in a magazine or on a video, or the woman at church or the woman at work? I'm not called to look lustfully, at another. And so, the Catholic Church has always held this to be true. And, Yeah. Thank you for that. That was excellent. And I think a lot of our listeners, especially our Catholic audience, is going to be very receptive, to those teaching. So, you know, you mentioned that you you love you have a heart for the youth. And you, you know, have spent a lot of time working with them. How do you see pornography really changing the landscape for our young people in ways that maybe, our generation didn't, you know, have we didn't have exposure to the internet, so maybe it didn't impact us the same way. What changes have you seen? I would say, number one, you see. I hate seeing this, but you see, young men no longer pursuing women. Like when I was a young man. I was from my earliest days. I was wanting to ask girls on dates and hang out with girls and be with girls, and, I wanted to learn how to, you know, have conversation. And how do I look them in the eye? How do I listen to them? How do I engage them? I mean, that was my childhood. I mean, I was always very much so attracted to women and wanted to gain their attention. And that is doesn't seem to be the main longing of, of young men anymore. I really do think that particularly the the rise of internet pornography, also the addiction of internet gaming as a whole, that's a whole other topic too. But I, I think so many young boys, because of their exposure to internet pornography, have less of this desire to to wonder, to explore, to, to get to know. Because in a certain sense, the veil has been ripped back. They've seen raw, hardcore pornography. So this desire to how do I pursue this girl, even if, let's say, it's an impure motive, let's say, oh, why do I sleep with this girl? Which of course not good. But this desire to know and to be curious and to find out that's all been taken away. And. But then also then the pursuit or the goal of what they want is, has been modeled to them since, like, you know, age nine, ten, 11, 12, whatever it might be. That well, my only goal is to have sex with her anyways, because that's so dating, getting to know each other, having conversation, looking each other in the eye, wasting time together has all been kind of eroded. I mean, so I opened a coffee shop in my in my parish, about a year and a half ago. And one of the reasons I did is because I want people to come back to looking each other in the eye, having a conversation. I mean, we we've all seen it. You go to a restaurant, you go to anywhere, and it's a bunch of young people on their phone the entire time. I mean, I remember being in middle school and going on my first dates and how awkward it was to sit across the table from a girl and to try to entertain her with conversation. The the entire time. I remember I went to a homecoming, and it was this girl that I really, really liked. And I asked her, and, you know, I had gotten the flowers and my tie matched her dress, and it was all. And the table conversation was so awkward, is so awkward. But now, like, nothing would be awkward because it would just be like, they wouldn't do that because there's no expectation that you actually have a relationship. There's more just a relationship that you're you're with each other texting. That's what you'd be doing in your bedroom anyways. I'd be sitting at home by myself. So it's just I really think it has like the desire for true intimacy of me being with someone. Can I can I just say that that that has just given me a new appreciation for just being together, even if it's awkward and I don't know what to say. Lately I've had, you know, just moments like that. But, you know, people can love each other and be around each other, even if they're not saying anything. But you're right that that now we have a way out of that and but we're less for it as people. We really are, especially young people. So yeah, thank you for commenting on that. I, I really did find a lot of value in that. One of the biggest things that keeps people both stuck in pornography, and it fuels further acting out, but it's also the consequences, the problem of shame. And so it keeps people quiet. But of course, people will come to confession about it. But as a priest, how do you help people move from shame in a way that's both, compassionate, but also how do you help them move out of shame and into hope in a way that's both compassionate but still grounded in the truth? Yeah. So Saint John Paul the Second, who, really had a deep, profound impact on my life when he came to, Denver, Colorado in 1993 for for World Youth Day and I was not there. I was not engaged in my faith, at that point. But, one thing that he said is that you are not the sum of your sins, your brokenness in your past. You are the sum of the father's love for you. And so I think one thing that I always try to bring to people's attention is the fact that they are not their sins, they are not who they were yesterday. They are not their brokenness. They are not their addiction. They are not, their worst day. They are a child of God. They are a son of God. They are a daughter of God. They are God's beloved. And if all we do is live in our past, we're not living as God's sons and daughters. And so the importance of knowing. In a genuine sense, like, yeah, whose I am, which is I am God's beloved son. I am God's mother. So for those of you who are listening to this, that have been shackled by addiction, like it's the same thing, you know, in many of you know, this, but like, depending on your age and how pornography came into your life, like for many of you, for, for for many of you, like, there is no intention for you in your heart of saying, I'm going to choose to become a porn addict. I think we can look at other addictions, and that's not that's not always the case. I mean, I would say like, I was raised in the 80s and I was told from, you know, the earliest moment of my life that smoking cigarets would kill you. I had a knowledge. That was there many people at the age of eight and nine and ten, 11 that are being exposed in a prophecy. They hadn't heard anything. And this addiction begins. And so it is there is a form of abuse that is there that is real. And so I think that needs to be acknowledged. This isn't even something that you even maybe chose for yourself, but that means that you also need to be very merciful with yourself. This is something that, you are not your sins. You are not your past. And when you stay trapped in that shame and you stay trapped in that, you can't truly live in the freedom that God wants for you. So what's important is for you to say, okay, I haven't looked at pornography today. Today I am free. I'm going to live in my freedom. That's what I'm going to live in. And so today I'm free and I'm living in my freedom. And I'm going to just focus on today, focus on this, this, this day, this hour, this moment. For those of you who are familiar with the processes, for alcohol addiction, you don't make the commitment that I'm going to be alcohol free for the rest of my life and that I'd be alcohol free at this very moment. I'm going to be alcohol free for the next hour, and that's what I'm going to do. And so I think in that you have the ability to say, I'm not yesterday, I'm not two weeks ago, I'm not two years ago. I am a child of God. That is absolutely wonderful advice and I think it's great wisdom. So talk to us a little bit about how accountability and having a close circle of people around us during this journey from pornography is so important to the process of healing and restoration. Yeah. So, clearly God didn't make us for ourselves. He created Adam and Eve. He didn't just create Adam. He didn't just create Eve. He created Adam and Eve. When Jesus sent out the apostles, he didn't send them out one by one. You sent them out two by two. And we were made for community. In fact, what are the basic principles of the theology of the body? Is the fact that we weren't made to be alone. Our bodies make no sense by themselves. The male body makes no sense by itself. The female body makes no sense by itself. This is why we have guys locker rooms and girls locker rooms. Because men together make no sense. Women together make no sense. It's when you put a man and a woman together that they begin to make sense. I mentioned that in this just to to to make reference to the fact we were not made to be alone. We were not made in isolation. We were made for each other and of course, male and female specifically were made for each other in this acronym, Holy matrimony, to complete each other. But I wasn't made to be alone in anything. I was not made to be alone in my life. I was made to be with others who are going to walk with me and journey with me in life. And this is true in my spiritual life. It's true in my social life. It's true in my emotional health. But it's also true in my sexual health, and particularly when one is dealing with addiction, it's the fact that I have to walk with someone else and someone else is to be walking with me. And so accountability is so huge. Because what the devil wants us to do is the devil wants us to live in isolation. He wants us to live in loneliness. He wants us, to feel that we're the only person in the whole entire world that deals with this struggle, that deals with this sin. And so it's tremendously important for us to not to break the cycle of isolation. And that happens when one, is willing to talk, to share and to, yeah, break the isolation and the loneliness. Amen, father. Thank you, for, sharing your thoughts on that. One of the things I want to make sure we cover today is that you and I have talked a little bit, offline, so to speak, about the fact that you are ministering in your parish in a way that's very intentional about this issue. I mean, yes, you know, you preach about it. Of course, you're hearing this in confession, but what are some of the things both in the confessional, as well as maybe outside of it, that you are doing to spread awareness about this? And, Minister, in regard to this issue in a more intentional way. Yeah. So, I, I do preach about it, youth retreats and ministries and opportunities, I specifically give topics on this often, separated gender. And then I also, there's a playlist on my YouTube channel, that is dedicated specifically to pornography. I think there's maybe 6 or 7 videos there. And then, I also have a lot of resources in the confessional, whether it be like business cards or letters that I've written, but different things that I use to help individuals be able to try to break free to get out of the struggle. That is, yeah, bringing them to depression and loneliness and isolation. And one of those YouTube videos, you talked about, a letter that you wrote specifically to the young men who come into the confessional. Yeah, I, I have a one is on blue paper and one is on pink paper. Is that same letter I also have like a female version of it, but yes, I have a letter that I specifically hand out, that covers just steps that I believe are helpful for people to overcome the addiction. And you have the three BS as the places to avoid, right? Yeah. So when we talk about isolation and, my experience. So when people confess pornography to me, my first question that I think they need to name the device. So I'm like phone or computer, you need to name the device. You need to name the device. You need to be aware of the device. And then there's my second question is I always just say bedroom, bathroom, basement, culturally in my area because I preach about it publicly. People know it. But, the three main places where most people look at pornography, all the rooms happen to start with a, B, so I refer to it. And those are the three B's. But bedroom, bathroom and basement and they're all rooms of isolation, the rooms of loneliness. And the rooms where I, where I can I can live in secrecy, which is what Satan wants. And, so we just need to step out of those places and choose to be in places where, I'm in community, I'm with others, I'm alive. I'm not in darkness. And, things begin to change. I believe. Father, a lot of parents are asking questions. They call us frequently and want to know how they can better protect their their children and and guide their children. What advice do you have for families that you know where they can build a home that's a sanction, a sanctuary from this digital temptation? Yeah. So am I. In my in my community, we talk very much like parents. You need to set boundaries, very real boundaries. And so we talk about the fact that like bedroom, bathroom, basement, that no technology should be in those places, that all phones in technology should always be charged in a public place, particularly in the evening where mom and dad can make sure that there's no phones in places where they shouldn't be. But then there also needs to be software. And this is, of course, what Covenant Eyes is able to provide where we're able to actually see and live in community and not live in isolation. You know, there is this idea that that's my phone. Well, I was like to ask parents, like, really? Is that their phone? I'm pretty sure you pay the bill. And I'm pretty sure that if they're living in their house, it's not their internet. And so you're providing the internet, you're providing the device. And so you have every right to say, I'm also going to make sure that what we're doing in this house, is glorifying God and is, good for your future marriage. I think we, you know, we need to always keep that in mind as well. Like, this is about not this is about their now, but it's also about their their future and their ability to see their body. I mean, so, I mean, we can go on and on and on and on about what pornography does, but, I mean, do you want your daughter to think that she is beautiful or do you want your daughter to compare yourself to porn stars for the rest of her life? Do you want your young son to believe he's actually, you know, a strong young man? Or do you want him to, you know, always be ashamed of his body because he's compared himself to porn stars. We want them to have a sexual relationship as a married couple that is healthy and beautiful. Do you want them to I mean, it, it it really is about their future. And so, parents, you have every right to be a parent and you need to be strong, for their own good and to realize that, yeah, that your role as a parent is really to protect. Thank you for those words of encouragement to those of us who are parents. On the spiritual paternity side, we, you know, many priests are very devoted, and they're hearing about this in the confessional all the time. But, you know, I it's understandable that some might, you know, they're having a hard time getting themselves to broach this topic, either in their homilies or in the Republic teaching or even, you know, to handle it in the confessional in a way that's sufficiently thorough to actually help create lasting change in the penitence. What words of encouragement would you have for your brother priests who may, just not know how to go about this or may be a bit timid in in handling this, what would you say to them? I would the image that I love to use, that I take from Matthew Kelly. And this was when Matthew Kelly was speaking just about television in the home. If there was a sewage of raw sewage pipe dumping raw sewage into your parishioners home, would you say nothing about it if there was raw sewage dumping into the children at your Catholic schools home and you knew it was happening and you said nothing, are you not culpable? And that's exactly what's happening. In fact, it's worse than raw sewage in so many ways. If we really begin to look at things, because you can clean up raw sewage and that house can be like once pornography is in someone's mind, those images are there for the rest of their life. And you can clean up sewage and you can you can change things, but it's pretty hard. To clean up after pornography. So I think it's pretty important to remember that. Father, how can our audience pray for you and your ministry and your boldness to speak on this topic? Oh, well, thank you very much. Yeah. Just please pray for me. And I mean that priest. Pray for, pray for the young people that, I clearly speak a lot to young people. Please pray for young people that they're open and receptive. Pray for young people. That. And when they hear these messages that they're not afraid, but that they're really that they're encouraged by the Holy Spirit to act upon the gift of fortitude given to them, particularly at confirmation. And, I would also just, yeah, pray that one of the things that I think we so it's not just I think this is key, but it's not just about taking away, I think so often we want to take things away. So like the take it, take away the pornography, take away the things that are bad. We also need to then be teaching people how to have what actually they're longing for, which is community, which is relationship. And so I think if you could also just pray for me like that's something that I'm trying to figure out as a priest. So if I keep saying like, don't look at pornography, don't be addicted to internet gaming, what am I also then providing as a pastor, then to then say, okay, here's the things that you actually should be having in your life. Here is community, here is fellowship. Like I said, we opened a coffee shop of recent in my parish, and that's one of the reasons, that it's there. And so just yeah, the creative ways that I'm able to do that, to be able to, to bring that to my people, is powerful and needed. Well, that's, well, thank you so much for, for your priestly ministry, for your time today, for blessing us with your wisdom, for your willingness to tackle this head on. And, you know, not let your parishioners homes be flooded by what's what really is worse than raw sewage. I think you nailed that. So, you know, from one Catholic to another to a priest. Thank you so much. You're welcome. You're welcome. Well, with that, we're going to bring today's episode to a close. We do. Thank you all for tuning in to this episode of The Covenant Eyes Podcast. And thank you so much, father, for joining us for this conversation. And how can people, get in touch with you or learn more about your the things you're doing in your parish? Yeah. So if you go to All Saints Catholic dot net, All Saints Catholic dot net, that is our parish website. We have a YouTube channel, which you can access from the parish website, all Saints Catholic dot net. But on YouTube we are All saints. We are one All Saints, we are one. If you also just type in All Saints, Father Jonathan Meier, our channel will come right up. And there is a playlist on there about pornography, but also many other topics that you can, dig into. Perfect. We'll put all those links in the show notes for our listeners. Thank you, everybody, for tuning in to this episode of The Covenant Eyes Podcast. Take care. God bless. We'll see you next time.