Hey everybody, welcome back to The Covenant Eyes Podcast. It's awesome to have you joining us today. We have got two incredible guests joining us, and we also have one of our favorite co-hosts back, Theo. Welcome back to the podcast. How are you. Karen. Doing great. Thanks for having me on. It's always a pleasure to co-host with you. Of course, we were having all sorts of fun tech challenges before the show, so that means this conversation is going to be off the hook. I just know it. This is going to be a super great conversation on. Our listeners are going to be super blessed by it. Absolutely. Yeah. It's going to be fantastic. Well, without further ado, let's go ahead and introduce our guest, Theo, and get started on today's conversation. All right. So we have, it's kind of a bit a different episode than, that you and I have have been on together. Karen. But we have the Raabsmith team. Matt and Joanna. Matt and Joanna, thank you for joining us today. Could you tell us a little bit before we do anything else, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and, your ministry? Yeah. Thank you so much. Super excited to be here. Glad it worked out. All the tech stuff. This is done now. We, we run a practice, a kind of coaching and counseling practice specifically for couples who are in recovery from sexual addiction, problematic sexual behavior, betrayal. Part of that is because of our own personal journey. We've been doing that for a number of years. We love our work, and love to get to, really engage couples in and help them kind of find the marriage that they really, really want. Yeah. So we are also authors and speakers, wrote a book called Building True Intimacy, and we're also parents of three young children, so we stay very busy. That's incredible. Well, welcome to the podcast, and I would love to dive into a little bit about how you guys got started in this line and work. You mentioned you guys had your own personal testimony and story. If you're comfortable, you know, maybe share with our listeners a little bit of the context on, you know, how you guys got to where you are today. Yeah, yeah, not on purpose. This was not the this was not the thing that we put on the what do you want to be when you grow up cars. But we did we, we had a desire to, to help marriages early on in our relationship. We didn't think it was going to be around this topic, but once, once the reality of my sexual addiction and pornography usage kind of imploded. Our relationship, we had to reorient what life was going to be. And we were. We were so devastated by it. I think both personally, that when we started recovering, we really wanted to understand that and we really wanted to, I think, dive in deep. And so I kind of went all in to personal recovery, understanding, sexual addiction, understanding, like what was going on with me, why I had kind of done the things had done, why I brought it into our relationship. Joanna obviously was dealing with something very different. Right. The impacts of betrayal and this, this trauma that had just been kind of thrown in her lap and exploded. And then as a couple, we wanted to dive in, but there really wasn't many resources for couples at the time. This is over a decade ago, and there was very little on the couple's healing journey. And so we had a lot of bumps and bruises along the way trying to figure out. Wondering, you know. Wondering in the desert, trying to figure out, like, what does it look like? Because we didn't want to just survive it, right? It wasn't like we just want to stay married. We wanted to really thrive on the other side. We wanted a relationship that we were really excited and passionate about again. But it was really hard to know, like, is that possible? How do you get there? And so kind of in our journey and what we're learning professionally and then starting to work with others, we actually began to develop a framework for relationships wanting to heal from sexual addiction, from betrayal trauma, and kind of creating a framework. So we now help other couples through that framework. That's amazing. Let's talk a little bit about that framework and just kind of how you guide couples to the other side, because often, especially Covenant Eyes, we see couples like in the trauma, we like in the heat of it all. I mean, it is, right? I mean, it is at the start of disclosure. You know, everyone is heightened state of emotion. But my understanding is that you guys are on a journey with them through the other side to the healing. So let's talk a little bit about what that looks like and what that process is. Yeah, yeah, we get a lot of those same calls, right. That I just found this out or I just finally confessed. And what are we going to do? And it's really about building the key components of any healthy relationship, but make sure we're doing it in the right way. You know, we will. Sometimes people will ask people what they want out of a relationship, right? And they're like, I want to feel like we're one. I want to feel unified. I want to feel closer than we've ever been. Right? And and that's what they want right away. And we say, that's great, that's wonderful. But if you don't rebuild from the from the ground up, you're really going to struggle to get what you want. And so that foundation is what was really destroyed in the betrayal, which is the loss of honesty. And so everything starts with rebuilding honesty, reestablishing that that sense of transparency and openness in the relationship. That's what allows us to rebuild safety, because that's the other thing that was lost, right? We lost honesty. We lost safety because of my actions and willingness to kind of withhold from Joanna, which was why we didn't have trust anymore. Right. And so we take honesty. We we put safety on top of that. And those are a lot of, a lot of individual work is happening in those levels. And so we work a lot with individuals at first to rebuild that honesty, that safety. Once those are in place, that's when the couple they get to start leaning back in towards each other and kind of working on that trust on that. In their dependance being in us again and healing the relational wounds that the betrayal caused as well. And as that trust is getting stronger, rebuilt, it paves the way for stepping in, risking again in vulnerability, but this time with a good reason to take that risk, are some evidence that taking that risk will result in health and healing, not harm. And so as we get to show up more and more vulnerable with each other, that's what begins to rebuild that intimacy. Yeah. And that's what we've realized is that people want that vulnerability. They want to be open. They want to be transparent. They want to risk. But it's the fears of, you know, my fear was if she ever finds out some of the things that I've done will never have anything right. For Joanna in recovery. It was, is he going to go back to that life? Right? Is he going to return back to those practices? And so that's why that kind of honesty, safety and trust, that foundation is so important. That's what gives the potential for a couple to move into scary spaces. And it's when we move into those scary spaces that we see the kind of connection that we've been dreaming of. Well, thank you so much for, first of all, sharing your story. And then talking about the beginning of, the process you kind of walk couples through, like yourselves. We at Covenant Eyes and me personally, I have a lot of passion, and as do you for seeing marriages be. Well, I mean, when it's good, it's really good. But it can also because it's vulnerable, right? It can also lead to a lot of, hurt and pain when, you know, not done right or even just, a moment of neglect or whatever. So I think it's amazing that you guys, do this work. One of the things about pornography is when you look at the Barna statistics, about 54% of practicing Christians view pornography, at least occasionally. And they don't a lot of them don't see it as a problem. So how can couples recognize the the harm that pornography is doing spiritually, relationally, and start to actually uproot it and heal their lives in their marriages from it? Yeah. I think one of the ways is to start talking about it. Most of those people who are using it aren't talking about it. We will ask couples a lot of times, you know, is this a conversation you have? Right? We might ask a wife, if you ask your husband whether he watches pornography or not, right. Many times these are conversations that are being avoided. Right. That's what I would do with Joanna, right? Whenever the topic would come up, I would kind of skirt around it. I would I would talk about my long hidden past, right? As if it was not a part of our present. And so that's where that honesty piece right out is. Even if you're not a couple restoring from kind of infidelity, just a couple that's coming into marriage going, are we going to be real about the things of this world? And are we going to talk about whether it has an effect on us or not? Because I think the reality is, is that I wanted to believe that what I was doing wasn't hurting anyone, myself and Joanna. But I knew deep in my soul that it was it was why I wanted to stop. It was why I wasn't, you know, if if I thought what I was doing was good, I probably would have been telling a lot of people about it, because that when I find a great restaurant, that's what I do. I'm like, hey, have you been to this place? Have you had their pizza? Right? That's not what I was doing with pornography. That's not what I was doing with my sexual behaviors. I was hiding them. I was keeping them from people because I knew they didn't align with my values. And starting to understand and talk about, like, what are the values that pornography is teaching us and realizing that the things we're engaging, spending our time on, like they are shaping us in some way when we're consuming media that is teaches me that I get what I want, when I want it, how I want it. Right. That is going to shape not not just your sexuality, but your character. And really, for so many couples we work with, it deeply has impacted their relationship, their experience of sexuality together and just absolutely destroyed it because one of them is coming in from this very self gratifying, selfish framework that they've learned. They're not doing it intentionally, but that's what they've been consuming. That's who they have been shaping themself to be and to show up in their life. And so especially as Christians, I think there is such a weight on us to understand and help others understand how deadly this can be for a thriving life in Christ. And I just want to ask one follow up question while I have you here. In regard to kind of the personal aspect of how this played out in your life, one of the, therapists who has a YouTube channel, who I listen to, the doctor, John Baloney, how often say that when you're holding something back from your spouse, they know they may not know what it is, but they feel the void. They feel something's being held back. So my question, Joanna, is when he was holding that back from you, did you feel that void there? Do you. Resent. 300%. And it drives you crazy because you feel the void, but you can't like point to a reason for it, right? So so when we were connected, when we were good, we were really good and it was great. And I could feel the intimacy. And then all of a sudden, nowhere out of the blue, he would be shut down, withdrawn, short and angry. Right. Like these emotions that made no sense in the context of the life that I knew with him. And it was and I would I would bring it up. We would talk about it. We would spin in circles. There was no clear answer, no clear reason. And so it was very hard feeling like that in the dark that lost for so long, not knowing what was going on. I think that's really interesting because we hear that quite frequently. It's kind of the women's, the wife's intuition. I mean, we we sense those things. I mean, we also have it as mothers like, you know, something's off, right, with your kids. We just God has gifted us with this ability. And we hear that quite frequently. You know, that the wife will sense something is off. It's so it's so interesting to me that, you experience that in your own life. I want to kind of pivot a little bit because, you know, you guys are working with so many different couples and the younger generation. I mean, we have a couple of generations now that have been raised in a porn ified world. I mean, they grow up on technology. They're being exposed as young children. And that is, like you mentioned, really shaping how they view sex, how they view the other gender, how they they interact with one another. And now we're even seeing with 44% of Christian women struggling with pornography, we could have both people in the relationship with sexual brokenness coming to the table and trying to build a unified marriage with so much baggage already there. So talk to us a little bit about some of what you're seeing, how things are changing as you work with different demographics and different age groups and, and just what that's like. Yeah. One idea, I think. Exactly. Right. We've just we've created a culture in which everything has become acceptable. And so and, and by doing that, what we've done is we've just, we've built this lie that things don't have impact. And so, yeah, you're bringing people in and they don't know the reasons for their problems because they're assuming everything they're doing is fine. They don't see it as an issue. Right. That was even something that I was dealing with. Like I knew what I was doing was wrong, but I had so justified it in my mind and so compartmentalized it that I could not see what it was doing to us for years. Right. I would, I would always want to say, oh, it was work stress or it's financial issues between us, or we're just we have different personalities, right? I could find anything to blame other than the very thing that was kind of eating me up from the inside. And, and it's interesting, I think that that even in younger generations, because I have I'll have a lot of younger guys sometimes reach out to me because they can just tell there is, I think, a sense even when it's become so normalized, there's a deep sense of discontent. I think people want more than they're getting out of life. They want more than they're getting out of relationships. And and the hard part is helping them realize you're your own worst enemy. I think that's where the challenge is, is that often when we want more, we look externally. We're like, who's at fault, right? Is it my wife or my husband or my parents to blame? Right. What's the reason? And helping people to see there are things that you're doing right. Things that you're engaging with, that are really pulling you out of the life you deserve to live. And I think realizing that it's not just the sexual experiences, but the sexual narratives that are then getting shape that we're bringing into relationship and those expectations and based on those narratives. Right. And I don't know anyone that doesn't come in with some sort of flawed sexual narrative, right? In their relationship based on the proliferation of unhealthy sex narratives out there in culture and even in the church. Right. And so realizing, okay, two broken people with unhealthy sexual narratives coming together to try and create a three and thriving, flourishing intimacy and sexuality together, I was like, that's going to be really hard. And I think the other piece is like realizing it's okay to need help. More people need help than don't need help. And so I, you know, just realizing, like, there are people out there you can talk to who can support you in figuring this stuff out. You know, we went to and recommend people go to a sex therapist like, it's okay to talk about this, to learn to understand it, to gather, to reshape your sexual narrative together in a healthy way. So now as we start to talk about the experiences and what we want moving forward, we're coming from a unified place. I love that. And you, you brought this up briefly, but I want to actually circle back around to it. You mentioned the church. And, you know, the church certainly is, struggling to address this, in many ways. And I think it's you know, there's a lot of reasons for that. But, you know, the church needs to be a beacon of hope. It needs to be a light to the world and a place, a safe haven for all those who are struggling with this sexual brokenness. It's where we should be seeking answers and and support and accountability and all the things. So as you're working with couples and even in your own journey, talk to me a little bit about what your experience was, finding that connection and that support and that healing in the church itself. It was definitely hit or miss, I think, it was the church isn't batting a thousand right now. And I get that. I mean, I was a pastor who was hiding a secret sexual addiction. So, I mean, I, I can't necessarily. Right, you know, throw a stone and not pick up my own and go, hey, wait, what's going on here? And so, I do think but I will say there are also pockets of communities of believers who are recognizing that, that we will get nowhere being against something, but what we will what we can do is we can be for something. We can be for the life God wants for his people. And I think that really for us was what turned the page for us, was finding believers who had allowed God into their life in new ways and created for them a life that they were excited about living. Right. And I think that that's the challenge is that, you know, these coping behaviors like numbing out with pornography or phones or alcohol or all these things that we know are destructive. They still work in some way, right? They alleviate pain and suffering. And so I think part of the call of the church, like you said, is if we can be a people who alleviate pain and suffering, we have an opportunity to to kind of draw people out of the things that are really kind of ending their life, right, making things so difficult. And there is more and more awareness growing, thankfully, in the church and just in culture about socially, about trauma. I think a lot of partners who've experienced betrayal trauma felt so alone and so isolated. And so I think there's a lot of hope in that, that that's something that's being talked about more and more. So hopefully churches are starting to become safer and safer places for these partners in these couples who are walking through this journey. A field hospital, kind of like our Pope Francis always call them. Yeah, yeah. Well with that we, we actually are coming to the end of today's episode, but I want to make sure that our listeners have a way to connect with you, and your ministry and get the help and support that they're looking for. So where do they find you guys online? The easiest place to find us is at RaabsmithTeam.com. Like I say, we're the only Raabsmiths in the world. We combined our last name so it's super easy to find us. And one of the things that we love to do is we love to share resources. We were so blessed when people gave us resources in our journey. And so we created a daily check in because we know how important it is for couples to just have a small space, whether they're in recovery or not. Yeah, but to have that small space to connect, to express, to kind of identify and reflect on their day and to share it with their partner. And so we built a check in a few years ago that we really love. And that is a free, you know, share that we would love people to have so they can go to RaabsmithTeam.com/free and get that free resource. They can start using it in their relationship right away. Amazing. Well we'll put the link in the show notes for sure. And listeners definitely check that out. I think it's healthy and a great tool for any of you, any marriage really. I mean, whether you're in recovery or whether you just are looking to strengthen and deepen your relationship with your spouse, but it's such an important tool. So thank you for creating that. And thank you for being willing to share your testimony today and, and all of the things that you're doing with your ministry. I think we need all hands on deck because this issue is not going away. And we need to address it head on as a church body. So thank you so much for joining us. Of course. Thanks for having us. Absolutely. Well, to all of our listeners out there, thanks for tuning in to this episode of The Covenant Eyes Podcast. You can learn more about our guests in the show notes, so make sure you check them out, check out the free resources. And until next time, we'll see you again soon. God bless. Take care.