Everybody, welcome back to The Covenant Eyes Podcast. It's so good to have you joining us again for a great conversation, Rob. I am so excited to have our dear friend Nick Stumbo from Pure Desire back today. I know you are as well. We're going to we're going to talk about a lot of stuff this time around. I think we're going to dive into some topics that maybe we haven't explored before with Nick, and I'm just really excited for the conversation. How about you? Absolutely. Always great to have Nick on. Nick, why don't you start our most of our audience will know who you are. No pure desire, for sure. But, for those that might not know who you are, can you give a just kind of brief overview of, pure desire and what you do there? Absolutely. Thanks for having me back on. Great to be here. I'm the executive director of Pure Desire, which helps men and women in the church overcome compulsive sexual behavior, sexual addiction, and then also on the betrayal side, as spouses try to work through. What do I do now after discovery and disclosure, primarily through, curriculum for churches to use. And then we have online groups and counseling for those that need specialty help. And peer desire was really my story. In 2010, I was a pastor at a local church in Washington state, and my wife and I were able to walk through pure desires, both counseling program and groups, and it transformed my life, our marriage, and ultimately our church, and led to, continuing engagement with the ministry. And so we've been at this now, you know, as a couple for 15 years and our story and then at Pure Desire for nine years, we have four kids, and we recently relocated to East Nashville, Tennessee. So, that's yeah, quick overview of of me and of pure desire. That's awesome. And welcome to the South because I'm also down here. So it's really exciting to have here. Desire. Yeah. Oh my gosh. You're going to find the Nashville area is just a wonderful place. And there are so many amazing Christian organizations. So I think you guys are going to fit in just beautifully. Well, talking about Pure Desire a little bit, you know, we have we have worked alongside you guys for a very long time, and you guys have done so much to really serve the church community. And I, I want to give our listeners kind of a preview of some of the ways that you are working with churches, and how, you have integrated into existing ministries within the church just to give them an idea of kind of how that practically applies inside the church. One of the things that we really believe is that the church is the best, community for healing, that it's when we can sit in a room with other people walking the same road that we're on, that really shame can be dispelled. And we learn that even if people know my whole story, they don't turn away and reject me. But they lean in and accept me and help me walk this road of recovery and that it's in community that we're healed. And like I said, no other place in the world is better situated for that kind of safe, loving, grace filled community than the body of Christ. And so from the beginning, our founder, Doctor Ted Roberts, is looking to create a small group curriculum so that churches could do this for themselves. And that's really our goal, that that we're not here to have people come to us. I mean, people can come to our desire for help, but really we're here to provide the resources and the expertise to the church in really a turnkey kind of solution so that the church can take ownership of these groups and help the men and women in their community that are battling with these issues and have the church be equipped to be that safe place. And then we're there to be the friend, the coach, the guide. So we have a small group, resources for men who struggle and for women who struggle. We have group curriculum for, women who are betrayed for college aged single men and women. And then, resources for parents that really can help serve on the proactive side of how do we talk with our kids and raise a generation of young men and women that are equipped in ways that perhaps many of us were not? And so to be a resource to the church is, I think, a primary goal. And then we also provide leadership training, through an online curriculum for churches that say, man, we'd love to have groups, but we have how do we have leaders? You know, no one's been through this. Well, we can equip those leaders. So even if a church has one person that says we need these groups, can I help lead them? A church could take them through or have them go through our training, and then they could launch groups, because really, that's that's all it takes is someone committed to help facilitate the groups and then let the material themselves be the expert guide that could lead men and women to freedom into healing. I love that and the balance that you guys provide too, because I think there is a place definitely for the virtual connection and community that groups and counseling can offer, but there's nothing quite like that in-person connection with the home, church and people that you sit in a room with and can have a cup of coffee with and have those deep, meaningful conversations. So that's what I really love about you guys. And what you do at Pure Desire is that you really are about equipping the church and helping the churches to bring people into that safe space, to get that healing in a structured environment, and you equip them with the tools. So I love that. Yeah, yeah. Thank you. It it's something to be said for when people who know me are a part of that journey, the way that it brings us out of isolation is significant. Because when you and we run online groups, because we know many men and women don't live anywhere close to a church that's running groups or for for other reasons, they just don't feel safe going to an in-person group. And so there is value in that. But there's also a danger if it's an online group or if I only meet with a counselor that I feel like, well, these people, it's kind of their role to understand my story and be with me. But if if the people who really knew me understood my story, they would probably reject me. And as long as we carry that fear, we're going to stay at arm's length from the people that know us and love us. And so in an in-person group with with other men or other women in our church community, or even just our broader community that are walking that same road, it really helps us, eliminate those messages of shame or those lies in our thinking that say, well, if if anyone really knew what you've done or the things you've thought they they'd want nothing to do with you. And when we find out instead that people lean in and and stay with us, it really is what creates that healing and freedom in our journey. Absolutely. That that issue of shame, though, Nick, I mean, the resources, once I get into that, it really are free to let go of that shame. But how do you help, coach churches to to break that initial barrier we've run into so many people who are just stuck in silence over that shame. They're not going to come forward. They've not told anybody. And unless the church often takes that first step to help, people know that it's safe to talk about these things into and to find help. And there is grace. How do you help churches, really? Or what are the keys that churches need to help people take that first step out of shame? One of the primary things I tell churches is that we need to change our pronouns. And don't worry, I'm not getting into like the gender orientation conversation. But here's what I mean that when we talk about pornography, compulsive sexual behavior, sexual addiction, we often use the pronoun you. For those of you that have this problem, those of you that struggle, if any of you would like help and it creates a category of sexual struggle, that tends to be that problem for those people. And if we're honest, none of us want to be in that category. And even if we know we'd like that help, it's very likely that our spouse or the family that might be sitting with us in that church have no idea we need the help. And so it really heightens the shame of, oh, am I one of those people? Versus what if the pronoun is us and our and we? Because the truth is, we know this in Genesis one, that we have all been made in the image of God and in the image of God. He made us male and female. And what is male and female, if not primarily a sexual distinction, a sexual orientation of our how our brains are wired, the body chemistry and hormones and the amounts of them. Even our body parts designed for sexual reproduction and functioning. I mean, that is a statement about our sexuality, and it's in the image of God. And so this means that all of us have been made in the image of God as sexual beings. And then we're born into a fallen world where sin and Satan or people around us have created damage and wounding our own choices. So the truth is, all of us are in need of some kind of growth, help, recovery, maturing in our sexuality. Now, that doesn't mean every person is addicted or every person needs, you know, a full recovery group. But it means that all of us need help growing in Christ in our sexuality. And if as churches, we could talk more about all of us and how do we bring our sexuality before God as men and as women, and then say, and for those of you that are ready to take a step, here's a group that we have. I think changing those pronouns from you and those of you to we and our is the first key. The second thing that I would say, is how important it is that the groups who is in the groups are confidential, but the fact that we have groups is not. And sometimes churches confuse that. They think, well, we can't talk about the groups, they're confidential. And then nobody knows. They exist or that we actually have these opportunities for care and recovery. I say you need to shout from the rooftops like, if you're ready, we've got groups free. We have a plan. We love these groups. We love the people who are in them. And if you're ready to join, here is a very safe, private, confidential way to sign up, because that is often the hurdle that people don't know how to get across. Like I mentioned earlier, maybe they know they need help, but the person sitting next to them doesn't. And if you ask them to raise a hand to stand up, fill out even fill out a card, the person next to them is looking over their shoulder. Why are you filling out that card? But if you could say, here's a phone number, here's an email. Here is a confidential way outside of the church service that you could indicate, your need for help or that you'd like to join a group. And here is the the confidential person that will know that you've asked for this information. I think it's completely appropriate that a church not list when groups meet, because that does create visibility. Like, oh, who's going to the church on Tuesday night? But listing that you have groups and how to get more information about them is absolutely key. So there's there's kind of a dynamic there that I think a lot of churches have just not thought through enough how people sign up, how they talk about groups. But if we would do that, if we would boldly advertise the groups and then confidentially allow people to express interest, we could really see traction in people getting help. I think that's a really good distinction. And I think you're right. I think sometimes we missed the mark with that. And I love how you frame the conversation about this as well, because you're right. I mean, oftentimes we talk about like if you're struggling with this issue, you know, there's a group for you. But in reality, I think, unless you know, our dear friends, the Mennonites or maybe the Amish don't have internet, so perhaps they don't have the same exposure, but most of us living in this technological world are struggling in some way with temptation. You know, some of us might be navigating it better than others, but I think at the end of the day, the conversation is something that all of us share. I mean, sexual sin and lust and all of that is not, you know, it is not lost to any of us. We only through the grace of God can overcome those things. But I think it's just important that we do change the dialog a little bit. Because you're right. I mean, I'm thinking if we were talking about, you know, alcoholics Anonymous or any other struggle that we have and they say there's a group for you, but, you know, there's no like, inclusivity to like, we all struggle with temptation and then like, it just it's more inviting. I love that you pitched it in that way. Let's talk a little bit about, you know, as the church is and I do think that while we have a long ways to go, I do see a lot of strides being made from churches and church leaders in this area. And I think there is movement in the right direction. But I think the new generation and their views, even on sexuality, opens up a whole bigger conversation when we start talking about issues like pornography and, you know, sexual sin or, you know, any of those related topics, how do you guys help the faith community really bridge those gaps and create safe places for the bigger conversations? Because oftentimes porn is the tip of the iceberg, but there could be so much packed into that. It's an important question to ask about the generations, because there tends to be a very large gap between what one generation defines as pornography and what another does. You know, if you are, you know, if you're over the age of 50 and most of your formative years in young adulthood, there was no internet then to you, pornography is still, you know, pages in a magazine where if you are a young adult who has grown up with a cell phone from day one, pornography might be the more extreme hardcore versions of, you know, graphic videos that they know are out there. And so they might be scrolling, you know, Instagram pages which are filled with either nudity or a lot of risque, you know, photos and that sort of thing and feel like, well, well, that's not pornography. So this isn't a problem. And I think that's where we need to change the language from simply talking about pornography to thinking more holistically about compulsive sexual behavior or, or sexual brokenness. Having the language to say is there any area of your life where sexually you do things that you privately wish you didn't do? Whether it's on your phone, images you look at with other people and it's so on that whole spectrum, we can help because these aren't different categories of behaviors that need a different approach to care and recovery. It all is rooted in many of the same issues of, as we've already talked about, voices and messages of shame, and then trauma and pain from our past, that we have learned to use forms of sexuality as a way to medicate or numb how we feel about ourselves and about life and pornography or relationships or hookup culture, or other, you know, fetishes, you name it, have become our ways of dealing with life. And when we kind of step back and help someone see that, that we're all on that spectrum of sexual brokenness somewhere, and whether we feel like we've waited in just a couple of toes deep, or we're neck deep in our struggle to just say, hey, it's okay to acknowledge need and whether your need is great or small. We're here for you. And a group would be helpful for you. And I think that reality that most people have just simply not been offered anything, is what we need to overcome. And so for, for the younger generation, yeah, there may be a greater need to emphasize the truth of God's Word and to emphasize what godly sexuality means and what it looks like, and then providing an opportunity and a means to move towards that. Whereas for an older generation, it may be that they're pretty firm in their understanding of scriptural truth, but but they've grown up in an era where it was so taboo to even talk about this. I mean, to even hear the word sex in church, they feel like, can we even say that word? Like, well, it's in the Bible, and God created it. So I think we're okay. But for them, it's it's that need for vulnerability and safety to actually talk about this. So the needs generation to generation, I would say maybe the starting point might be different. But under the surface the needs are very similar. And the needs for community for grace. And to understand a pathway of recovery is actually going to be quite similar. Whether someone is, in Gen Z and is very young or someone that's a baby boomer, you know, it's one of my favorite stories that I tell as a young pastor, when I was nine, in my early 30s, when I started leading groups for Pure Desire in my own church, and in one of those early groups, I had a 19 year old college kid and an 81 year old older man, and the 81 year old. His relapse was literally to drive to an adult bookstore and rent a video like he'd been doing for 35 years, which of course, for the 19 year old, it was his cell phone and their journeys into that and why they struggled, whereas as different as could be. But as they begin to tell their stories and how they'd gotten hooked into it, what were the lies they listened to? Are the excuses they made on their way to a relapse. They would look at each other and go, wait a minute, you two. That's, you know, and this 19 year old and 81 year old were connecting because under the surface they were very, very similar. Even though externally you might say, oh, those are two different stories. They need different group. Well, no, actually these were both men in need of being seen understood, valued and affirmed in this area of hidden us in their life and find that they weren't alone, that God's grace was enough for them. And both of them experienced incredible healing in that group, even though maybe the entry point or the presenting actions were very, very different. Really. I love the way you look at that. I mean, it really does come down just that, that heart issue, our need for Christ in this situation. And so, whether the Gen Z or baby Boomer, you know, a lot of the keys are the same. That's that's great. But shift gears a little bit, but this is related to what we've just kind of you've been talking about. And, you know, it's almost been a year since you put out the, beyond the porn phenomenon, the the Barna stats. Over that time, have you got some key learnings from the data you've released and especially with churches, are you seeing some of these things really, beginning to help inform the churches and help some of their response to the these issues? Yes and no. I think in many ways, the data unfortunately confirmed a lot of what we all have suspected and believe that that in an internet generation and with things like Covid, impacting our world, people withdraw into their own worlds and into isolation and in isolation. It's so easy to act out. And so seeing the ways in which pornography use, even among committed Christian men and women, is growing, I think there's been a little bit of a head nod for a lot of leaders and pastors like, yeah, yeah, we know. And yet there is often, I think, an uncertainty of what to do about it and feeling like, man, a, there's so much on our plate as churches and as pastors and, you know, having been a pastor for over 15 years myself, I totally understand that if someone came to my office with one more ministry they wanted me to start, it's like, well, thank you, but have you noticed how much I'm already trying to do? And so I think in some ways there is a slowness of response because it just it feels overwhelming and it feels like a lot of work. And so that's one of the things we're trying to do is say, you don't have to be the expert, you don't have to have all the answers. But if you would help equip a few people in your church, you could launch groups. And that would begin to shift the culture in your community. And so I think that's in some regard the the no, it's some of the same challenges we've always been facing, I think areas where I'm seeing more awareness or I'm thankful for growth in the areas of recognizing this is not a man's problem alone, that this is a people problem, and women struggle, too. And that's one of the clear findings in the data, is that the growth of porn use among women is is much, much higher. And faster than it is among men. Now. Men still consume at a much higher rate in general. But growth among the younger women, I think is creating a lot of eye opening. You know, one of the questions are, you know, you can look at the generations breaking down in question. And when people are asked about porn use, if you look just at Gen Z, so those young adults under the age of 25, it's two thirds of young adult women would raise their hand and say, I'm struggling with pornography as well. Now, that doesn't mean every day, but it means at least at some point in a given year, they're saying, I view pornography and it's become a part of my world. Can you help me? And I think as pastors and church leaders see that, you know, two thirds of our young women, it's clicking in like, oh, we can't talk about the men anymore. Like, if you men just stop looking at porn, like, we need to help our people. And I think that's tremendous. Growth. And something that's needed is going back to what I said earlier. We are all sexual beings made in the image of God as such. And then born into a fallen world which has impacted our sexuality. And all of us struggle in one way, shape or form, whether we're male or female. And yes, the way it presents in the female population might look a little different, might be a among a broader spectrum where, you know, men being more visual and having a little more, you know, maybe narrow field of struggle within the realm of pornography might be the case. And yet that need for community in recovery is the same male and female. And so I think also the data about the impact on relationships and marriages, I mean, that's some of the, to me, the most striking data on, you know, how men in a marriage compared to women in a marriage perceive the porn use of their partner, where men saw it as primarily positive and women's side as primarily negative? I think it's it's some of that discontinuity in our own marriages and among men and women. It's like, wait a minute, something's not right here. If we've got men and women looking at the same topic and having completely different experiences, then we need to start paying attention to those discrepancies. And I think that's starting to create at least more questions being asked. And I do hear that more from pastors who say, man, our staff has been talking about this. Our leaders have been coming together saying this, something's not right here. And I'm hopeful that the more that discontent grows, it'll get us to the place of saying, you know what we're going to stop talking about. We're going to start doing something about it. We're going to launch that group. We're going to go to that seminar. We're going to reach out to peer desire. We're going to connect with Covenant Eyes and become, you know, an ambassador church, whatever it looks like. You know, we all have to get enough motivation to actually prompt action. And I think we're getting more of that, maybe not as universal as I hope, and I believe that one day it will be. But but enough angst growing that pastors and leaders are saying we're going to do something. And if that continues, I think it'll really be for the good of the church overall. I think that's spot on, and I think I do think that we will make big strides and movement in the future. I mean, we certainly all pray each and every day that, you know, more people can find freedom. And I think that, you know, the more that churches are aware and hear conversations like this and know that there are organizations out there that are equipping churches to have these really important conversations and starting groups and, and helping people find that freedom. I think we'll get there. So I am hopeful. I'm also hopeful. I've recently been doing a lot of research on the younger generation, specifically our men, our young men returning to the church. I've seen numerous, studies and, you know, polls and also news articles, and I've just been kind of very fascinated with that because this is a generation who absolutely has been impacted by pornography. They were raised, you know, from the time they were born with technology. And so they're now coming back into the churches and exploring their faith again. And how are we going to equip the churches to be ready? Because they have been lied to by culture. They feel a little bit betrayed by the messages that pornography and culture have been telling them their whole young life. So what do we do to equip our churches, Nick? Really to embrace, to wrap our arms around these young men and help disciple them, towards growth spiritually and from and, you know, growth from, struggling with pornography as well. We have to be willing to keep talking about it. I think that's one of the things we've seen is that the younger generation is hungry for for what's real, for what's authentic, for what's genuine. And I think that's been a challenge for the church as they go, and culture and sex and porn and, you know, that whole culture is just everywhere. It's in Hollywood, it's in print, it's on their social media apps. And then they step into church looking. And I think that's what's driving the return of Gen Z. And to church is the emptiness of what culture has to offer is becoming so apparent that there's this hunger of there's got to be more, there has to be something. And it may be in my faith, it might be in Christ, it might be in the Word of God. But if they attend a church that just never addresses this subject, you know, maybe once a year, it gives the kind of the purity talk or the true love waits talk. And that's good. But if that's the extent of our message and our conversation around this topic, I think it it lacks that sense of realness. That Gen Z is looking for. And it's interesting you mentioned the Amish because actually, as we've worked with several Amish groups, we have find we have found, based on their own admission that porn use among Amish men is rampant. And they say it's because we cannot talk about this. It's so taboo, it's so under the radar. But everybody, this is some Amish culture here. I'm telling on them a little bit. Most Amish own a cell phone. They just don't tell anyone about it. And on that cell phone, they're looking at porn because nobody talks about it. And I would say that is true almost universally around this topic of sexuality, that the less it's talked about, the more people struggle. And so in our churches, if we become that safe place to have God honoring conversations about our sexuality, about, how we deal with some of these gray areas, that's where young people, I think, start to feel, man, the church has something for me. And we connected to the eternal Word of God, and we connect it to biblical truth, but in a way that meets them where they're at. And the questions they're asking. Otherwise, I fear they might come back to church and go, well, well, there's no answers here either, because all the deep questions I'm asking that, that my social media influencers have been teaching me about or telling me to think about, the church has no alternative is just silence, and silence will lead them to keep searching. But I think we have a golden opportunity to really present those answers from Scripture in a relevant way that could help people really dive into their faith and and become a continued part of that evolution of young people in the church. Well, Nick, that certainly is great, great wisdom about what our churches need to do, especially with this younger generation. We find that, too, that so many churches still just aren't comfortable or talking about this enough. One of the important, things you mentioned earlier was that piece of community. You've got it in your in your groups and how that functions, outside of somebody joining a group around this issue, how do churches build in some of that community to at least begin to have some of these conversations, and get these conversations started? How important is that community? I would go back to my thoughts on being a safe place. I feel like many churches perhaps sense that we have small groups for that, and we want our small groups to be safe and, and, and people, they feel like they can get to know one another. And that's true. And it's good. But typically those are mixed gender groups where it's not appropriate, to go to that level. And I've been in small groups my whole life. And even when my wife and I have told our story in a small group, it's often not the place that people feel like they can go deep into that. And and maybe even you're breaking up into men and women for prayer time. That's a step in the right direction. But I think you've got to create an expectation around a new kind of community where people know from the get go, this group is for this purpose, and it doesn't have to be called the pure desire group. It, you know, it doesn't have to have a specific ministry label on it. But to really create an environment where getting real, going deep is the expectation. And I don't just mean deep into, you know, we need to go deep into our study of Scripture or deep into sharing our stories. You know, what I have found is that most men and women who first start group, they don't actually know how to share their whole story because it is so cloaked in shame. It is so cloaked in the parts of the story they have vowed never to tell others about. There are pieces of it that are messy, and no one's given them permission to even go into those parts of it. And so you could sit with someone in here, quote unquote, their story for an hour. And yet all of these hidden pieces of brokenness and shame and the parts of my story when I was 13 and something awkward and unexpected happened that I still don't know how to talk about, they will never surface in their story. And so then you could be in group with that person for years, not even knowing the parts of their story that are most relevant to the shame that they live in, but in a pure desire group and others like it, where there is really some structured means of understanding our story and telling it, that it makes such a difference. I I've heard in Recovery World, you know, one of the sayings we use is that the devil is in the details, and I think there's such truth in that, in that there is details in our story that have become the lies that are so, steeped in shame that we live stock. It's that detail of what if they knew, what line you had crossed or when did it happen, or what kind of pornography you've looked at, or that it was a same sex story that was part of your background? If they knew that piece of it, then they'd reject you. And so that little detail we hold close to our vest and we never share. But that's the very thing that keeps us stuck year after year after year. And I can tell you, men and women could be in your normal, healthy, good church small group for a decade and never share that detail because Satan has been lying them for so long, saying, if you ever share that this nice group of people won't like you anymore, and it's not until we have a confidential, structured environment where the whole goal is to get down into some of those details, not in just a, you know, caught you kind of way, but a hey, let let's go to those places because we all have them. And then let's understand how we not only share them, but then we learn what we've internalized about that part of our story so that we can begin to write a new story that that's where lives are shaped and changed. And so the thing I would say to church, if I could appeal to a pastor, one of the things that I have found is that that kind of a group that requires a pretty significant level of commitment, of consistency, of confidentiality, it doesn't happen quickly. And so very often our church structures don't allow for this kind of community because it doesn't fit into a Sunday school class or a men's retreat weekend or, you know, the six week series that we want it to fit in. Those can be great starting places, but we need to allow a little bit of a paradigm shift here, and it's one of the areas in which I'm really grateful for Celebrate Recovery, because what I have found is that churches that have Celebrate Recovery kind of get that like Celebrate Recovery meets every week, all year long, without fail, whether it falls on a holiday or not, like we are meeting. And the churches have kind of learned like, well, that's CR and they do. They do it their way. Well, part of it's because they've learned that recovery can't take a break. And so they keep meeting in that context. When you're trying to get into these deep places of our story, these groups will need more support, more time. It it'll probably take longer than you want it to, but if if we will allow it to exist within our church structure in a unique way, it can become a healing place that then becomes the breeding ground for all of the leaders we need in those other ministries, all of the volunteers that we're looking for. I think what the average pastor doesn't realize is how many people are held back from raising their hand to volunteer for anything, because that voice of shame is telling them, no, you're disqualified from helping in that way, or don't get too involved. Or they might find out that detail that you vowed never to tell anyone. And so when they can actually have this experience of healing, they become the volunteers you need. They become the disciple makers in your church. And so you might feel like, well, that'll pull people out of our traditional small groups. Well, if it does that for a year, but they get healthy and free, they're going to become your small group leaders, not just attenders. And if we could see that as a discipleship pathway, I think church would be running to this model saying that we need to get people healthy and free so that we can actually see them be used by God and all of these other things we're trying to do as a church. And so that the recovery ministry won't pull away from your other discipleship process. It will actually feed into it if you will allow it to be different than maybe what you've expected or done with so many of your other ministries. I think that's an excellent point, Nick, and I think the paradigm shift really does need to occur because, I mean, ultimately we hear churches talk a lot about, you know, wanting to equip, you know, fathers and mothers and parents and all the things. And ultimately, though, if those fathers and mothers are struggling with pornography in their marriage or in their family, you know, helping them go through this process, having a group where they can find true feed and freedom that actually strengthens their ability to be a father and a mother and to grow their marriage and strengthen their marriage and protect the next generation. So it's kind of investing in the all of the areas. I mean, because pornography tears us apart in so many ways and just our sexual brokenness. So if we're healing people, I feel like there are long term benefits to that for the entire family because stronger, healthier men are going to be great. You know, husbands and fathers and pass that legacy down. So I just think there's so much value in that. But I think it can be hard for churches. How do we how do we better equip our church leaders, to take these next steps? Because, you know, I think you hit on something when you were talking that, you know, pastors are busy. There is, you know, so many programs, there's so much that they want to invest in, but they don't often have the time, the resources, the people. What are some easy next steps that a church can take to have, you know, a pure desire group established and up and running in their church? Or is it leaning into some of the groups that you guys offer virtually, and maybe use that as a launching pad? What advice do you have? There's any number of ways that a church could get started? I think one of the crucial starting points as a pastor, coming to that place of being okay to say, I don't have to be the expert on everything, that it's okay that I'm not the expert on, you know, dental hygiene. And if someone came to me about their teeth, they'd say, well, that's why God created Dennis. And if they came to me about a sexual addiction issue or a compulsive pornography use, and I'm not sure what to say, like, that's okay. We've got people in our church that I can connect you with. And if that's our mindset that I can be a facilitator of helping point the way to to healing Ministries, then as a pastor leader, I can be a part of a system without having to feel like I take it all on my shoulders. Now, having said that, I would also encourage pastors and leaders if if you get a little bit equipped, you can make a difference. I mean, listening to this podcast, you're getting equipped, use it utilizing the free resources that Covenant Eyes has and pure desire to understand how could I launch groups? I mean, this this is what we do at Pure Desire. We have a team of people that are here to help churches start groups. We can provide leadership training. We can meet with your leaders, but often we lack the open door. And the pastor is the one that can open the door and say, hey, here's a couple of my leaders. Would you help train them to launch groups in our church? The pastor becomes I. The other thing I've said it a lot of gatherings is the pastor can become the key champion of the ministry because again, when when this ministry is kind of under the radar, it does feel taboo. It's like, I think we have groups that we don't really talk about them. It's not a big deal. But when the senior pastor can get up or a pastor in a significant role can say, hey, our church so strongly believes in every member being equipped to to live in Christ likeness. And one of the areas that we want to see you equipped is in healthy sexuality. And so our church has provided groups to help men and women understand sexual wholeness in their lives. And if you're ready to find a group, here's how you can get engaged. Here's here's your next step. You know that two minute announcement from the stage now suddenly legitimizes an entire area of care and recovery in the church. And when that happens once a month, you know, or in the bulletin, when there's just places that keep up, people keep seeing, oh, our church cares about this. Or maybe it's referring people to Covenant Eyes. Maybe it's having a list of resources that the church has vetted and believes in feels solid about their theology. I mean, we're open to being asked those questions. I think it, again, just communicates this is an area that we feel called to help our people in. And as the pastor, you lead the way in that. So I think taking those steps of of having good resources, knowing, who in your church might be equipped to start groups even if it's not you, and then creating that open door to be the champion for them, can do so much. And honestly, I think you could do that with one hour of your time. Once a quarter, you could be the champion that your church needs to see there be life in this ministry and then those that are really passionate about it, those are the ones that can lead groups. And over time, you'll continue to raise up new leaders out of the groups that you launch. So it really can be a self-sustaining ministry if you give it a little bit of lifeblood, a little bit of energy on a semi-regular basis in your your church calendar. Well, that's, that's great wisdom and great stuff. So, Nick, if our listeners or churches are listening and interested in starting groups, how do they find your information or what? What do they do? Everything can be found at Pure Desire, dawg. We've got, a groups page, and on that groups page, you could, say I'm, you know, I'm looking to join a group. I'm looking for a group for someone that's been betrayed. And then on there, too, there's information about starting groups. Or you can reach out to our team simply by emailing us at groups at Pure Desire dawg. And then also is going to mention we have a new book coming out called Hope, Healing and Freedom a Pathway Beyond Pornography, Sexual Addiction and Betrayal. And it's really meant to be that introduction to what is pure desire, and why has this been an effective pathway for hundreds of thousands of people? Like like what is what's the what's the plan that we have? And to offer that in a way that we feel is doable, understandable, whether you're the pastor that wants to launch something or the individual looking for help yourself, it really kind of paints the picture of healing and recovery, the pure desire way. And then it was co-written by myself and Ashley Jamison on our team. So it has a male and female perspective. So whether you want to work with the men in your church or the women in your church, it's really an effective starting place to just kind of understand this whole field and what steps you might take. That book, I think, would be a great starting point. Again, that's hope, healing and freedom. And we're releasing that, next month. So we're right on the cusp of that as we record this episode. That is incredible. And we will put links in the show notes for all the listeners so you can check out Pure Desire. They are a tremendous asset to church communities all across the country. And we would strongly encourage you to check out the resources, check out the new book that's coming out. And definitely check out all of the the wonderful programs that they offer for churches. I think together, your ministry, Nick, and the work at Covenant Eyes. I think we just we have to stay, you know, linked arms together in this battle because it is so important and so many people are finding freedom and hope and healing, but there is so much more left to do. That's right. That's right. Well, awesome. Well, Nick, it has been great to have you on the podcast. Thank you so much and we are so glad you safely made it to Nashville area. And we look forward to seeing all the adventures that your desire will have in their new corporate location. So that's going to be really exciting. And Rob, thanks for co-hosting today. It's been a joy having you on. Oh, I enjoy it. And to our listeners, thank you for for watching. We ask that you just share a like this and, certainly look for the next episode of The Covenant Eyes Podcast. That's it for today. Thanks again, Nick, for joining us. Appreciate it. Bye bye.