Hey, welcome back to The Covenant Eyes Podcast. It's Karen, and I'm so glad that you're joining us today. Friends, we have got a great episode coming up, and we have the one and only Theo joining us. He's back again. He has been joining us a few times here and there, and I am so excited to have him back because Theo is our Catholic outreach specialist and he brings so much wisdom and experience to the conversation. Welcome back Theo. Hi Karen, thanks for allowing me to, co-host along with you. How are you today? I'm doing awesome. The sun is shining, so that is great because we haven't seen the sun a whole lot. Though I don't know about you there in the Chicago area, but it's been gloomy down here in Kentucky. We were, we had some rain today. But, thankfully that's stopped. So there was some cold weather a little bit. Word got up, but, things are starting to warm up a bit, too. Awesome. And you? I love the fact that you've got the alphabet on the background. You are a dad. And that is so cute to see. I love pointing that out because, you know, we all, we all have families and stories to share, and it's so great to see the humanity behind the man. So with that, Theo, let's go ahead and roll into today's episode and introduce our guest. All right. So we are here with Dan Angst. He is the founder of Road to Purity. He's authored several books, including From One Addict to Another, 40 Days to Freedom and Winning the Battle for Sexual Purity. Dan, welcome to the podcast. How are you today? Thanks. Great. Thanks for having me. Pleasure to be. Here. Dan, can you just, you have quite the story of, recovery and conversion. Can you just briefly tell us a little bit about that? Sure. Well, I'll kind of give you a brief overview, because we don't have an hour and a half, like, sometimes, but, basically my short version of my story is, I, was a I call myself a recovering sex addict, and not just a porn addict. And the reason is, I was addicted for over 30 years in not just pornography, but also prostitution, massage parlors, affairs, the whole gamut. And in that process, I, you know, kind of got married in the middle of it and, thought it would go away, but, you know, it didn't I didn't really realize what was going on. There's but there's a whole process, a whole long story of things that have happened to me through some of the affairs, some of the other things that have happened. Spiritual experiences that, that I've had. But in a nutshell, going through all this, there was a point where God kind of got a hold of me and said, I, you know, went through a lot of it, and we came out the other side, you know, beaten, beaten and bloody, but, you know, came through. And he said, I brought you through this, and I need you to share your story with others and tell them what you did, how I brought you through, and what it takes to get through this. And that is, you know, in a real abbreviated form, a big part of the story. And part of what happened with that is in that telling of it began the, ministry that I have, rode to purity, nonprofit organization that started around ten years ago that is focused on delivering and working with men and some women on this addiction in the sexual, arena and has actually in it has grown through my own growth as well. Discovering the roots of things. And it's not it's not just about, the behavior. And a lot of times you'll hear the porn is not about porn, about something deeper. And that's something that in a big way that we teach and we put into our programs. And one thing that, that you didn't mention, Theo, that we have is, kind of our flagship program now called restoring God's Foundation, which also has an information on it. It is a major program that works with men and or women, to get through this, and this addiction and so much of it dives into the roots of the addiction and what's really going on underneath. And with that, we have expanded into other areas, with what we're doing, including formation, which leads into, priests and clergy, as well as awareness that we're working with and we're working with families and couples. And, one amazing thing that I have to admit is by the grace of God and only the grace of God is that after all of this that I just shared, a lot of this happened during my marriage, and I am still married, and we are coming up on 37 years this, this July. And that is the story in and of itself. Probably for another podcast. But, that's still that's still there and that we, we do a lot of work to, to share with people that it is possible they can get through this. These kind of behaviors don't mean that it has to be over and, and, and it's we believe in very strong spiritual warfare. And we know that this is something that the enemy wants to destroy. Everything God created, including man and woman, joined us one and he sure threw it at us. But God was there with it and got us through it. And I have to say something. So it's okay. I'll get back to missionary. Yeah. No, I know you gave you this. Give us the abbreviated version, and we would love to, have you back again. And we can really dive into that because I know a lot of listeners can really relate to where you've been in that journey, and, you know, it has a beautiful ending to it. So we want to emphasize God's grace. And and in that journey, you know, you brought up a lot of things in in that whole segment about your story, that I found pretty profound. I, I often use an analogy of a tree, and the whole community comes out to look at the tree because it's sick and they can't figure out why is the tree turning brown and there's things wrong with it. But until you get to the roots and dig down and find that, you know, the roots are being impacted, they're being, you know, over watered or there's rocks too tangled up in them. You don't necessarily understand that pornography is not the actual problem. It's it's just a symptom of something deeper. So I'm glad you brought that up. And I want to kind of stay there for a minute and talk about that, because oftentimes we just, you know, we see porn use and we don't recognize that there are triggers and there's things driving people into those behaviors. So talk to us a little bit about that. So many of us well today, so many of us, virtually 100% of us are wounded, period. And it's just a fact of of who we are and everything that happens, it usually starts in childhood for the most part, but things that are we usually start with guys is tell them that God created us to love and be loved. Period. End of story. That's it. But in childhood, through many things. Sometimes. Sometimes, malicious. Sometimes it's intentional. Sometimes many times not. We have trauma when we're when we're younger. Minor trauma, major trauma, things. Anything from divorce or abuse, sexual abuse, things like that can happen. Major or even small things. Just a parent who, you know, a father who isn't that strong at relationships with his kids, his maybe his dad wasn't that strong with him, so he just doesn't know how to affirm his his son's or how to talk with them and give them, you know, the love that they need. So they grow up not getting what God designed them for. And you can even have something simple, such as, 12 year old kids come home with a report card and have four A's and one C, and the father can say, why isn't a C and a? Now he's not mad, he's not really criticizing him or he's not in trouble. But he says that. So the 12 year old boys goes, oh, I'm not perfect. I need to be perfect to be loved. I'm not good enough. Those kinds of things get planted in his head. They start fueling and so forth. And he hundreds of these things happen throughout your childhood, so ultimately you end up in adopting this false identity of, I'm not good enough, I'm not perfect. I need be perfect to be loved. I'm not wanted. I'm not known all these kinds of things. And if you don't have the perfect love that God designed us for, wired us for we have pain. If we don't transform that pain, we will transmit it. It's not a choice. It's not something you can white knuckle your way through. It's just a fact. So bottom line is we all have to discover this pain. What is it that's going on, what happened in our childhood? Work through that and just get through those kind of things and release them, which will then in turn relate to how we behave or not behave, you know, as adults or later in our lives. One of the things that's evident of this is in our program, the Restoring God's Foundation program. I have countless guys who will start a program and they'll email me, call me, whatever, you know, later in the program, they'll say, I've been doing this program for five weeks. I started this program to to curb my porn habit. This program is changing who I am, and my poor is just going away on its own. And when you start realizing the porn is a coping mechanism or a medication for something, and when you get rid of that something or begin to heal it, the need for it begins to vanish and go away. And that's the root of what's going on. And quite often you have to dig up the root. And it's funny, you came up with that analogy, which is perfect, with what we do, because it really blends itself into something new that we're working on. And we are embarking on a whole program for families, to deal with healing parents regardless of what their woundedness is. But then the children and all the problems that they have with what's going on. We're where this all starts because every I talk to hundreds and hundreds of men and they're all start when they're children somewhere. Well, if you if you're digging up the roots of this tree, that's sick. What if you could get to this tree when it's a sapling and yank it out? Then what if you can fix this when it's, you know, 7 or 8 years old rather than 30 years old, how much more successful you're going to have? And how much of the damage is that tree or that person that child going to have as they get older? That's what we're trying to approach in the program that we're working on now. With that and it evolved. You know, sexuality and chastity is a big thing, but everything else as well. I love that. And that is such good news that you're thinking about that next generation. Because you're right. It is so important if we can get to them when they're young and make a difference. How I guess as you're working on that program, I'm just curious. I've got some questions. You know, when we think about, you know, intervening at an earlier age, you know, like you said, we all have traumas and wounds that happen to us, whether they're small or big. And how how do we address that in children? How do we, you know, help kids who are experiencing that? Is it teaching them resilience and how to cope with those situations that come their way as well as working with the parents to, you know, teach them different ways to go about, certain types of things, like the example you gave of the critique, you know, a better way to address that with your children so you don't leave wounds inadvertently. Right. It's teaching. Part of it is teaching the parents. Number one, it's helping the parents realize their own woundedness and begin to heal their own woundedness. They begin to see things more clearly that way, then begin to suggest to them what they may be doing to their own kids that they don't even realize. But but generally teaching them in a way that's not like, hey, you're messing up your kids. Here's what you're doing wrong. It's here's what commonly happens that we don't even realize. And you may realize this now is you're 35 years old that you didn't know. So when you talk to your kids, is there a level of affirmation? How often have you told your child that you're proud of them, that you're, that you love them and whatever, and it's speaking to them like in that report card situation? Yeah. Why isn't a CNA? That's fine. But don't leave it at that. Say, hey, I'm real proud of you. Of these A's that you got to see that you have. Is this something that you're struggling, you know, how can I help you? What can we do for you on this? But I'm still proud of you. With everything else that you've done, making sure that that is expressed, you know, and so forth. But at the same time, teaching the kids as they get a little bit older, you know, you know, eight, ten, 12 years old, something like that of, of being self-aware, of when things aren't going right, to be aware of it, to say something, to discuss it. Be okay with telling your your father that, hey, you know, that hurt my feelings when you said that and make that okay for them to say so and then discuss it. But at the same time, you know, the, you know, the 12 year old girl, Consommateurs, you know, she's crushed because she wasn't picked to be on the cheer team. Well, okay, number one by then, are you teaching them where their value is? You know, are there is there value from other people or is it from above? And hopefully that's true learning that to begin with. But at the same time when they do come home and that's of course crushing, they feel rejected and unwanted. Well, lead them through some type of prayer, you know, in the name of Jesus Christ. I reject the feeling that I, I renounce a feeling that I'm rejected and unwanted, and I replace that with the truth that I am loved by Jesus. If I'm loved with by my parents unconditionally. And I accept that as truth, and I reject these other lies, teach them to work through that stuff, then. Man, that you just said so many fantastic things there. Definitely one thing. And I've heard this quote before, though, that suffering and suffering not transformed. Is suffering transmitted. That's so powerful. Yeah. And one of our Safe Haven Sunday booklets also talks about how important it is to talk to your kids about affirming them for their efforts, not necessarily for their successes, so that they or fail or, you know, or their failures so that they see their value in that they are and not what they do. So I'm I'm really glad that you are working on programs for that to help parents. Our woundedness really, really can have a ripple effect. Oh yeah. It makes them. Doing a lot with with parents. I'd love to hear more about what you're doing with, with with clergy and with seminarians. We have been, for about seven years now running our Restoring Guys Foundation program with seminarians, helping them through these issues themselves. Because so many of them get into seminary, they they think they're going to get into seminary and make it disappear. Well, it's not so we work with many groups, of seminarians do that. And then also for almost eight years, we had been doing a class, just kind of a one day class with, we call them graduating seminarians. They're actually a theology of theology for students who are. This is the fall between before they get ordained the next spring. And we do, a little mini course on on how to address sexual sin when revealed in a confessional. So we've done that, and it's gone so phenomenally well and successful that we decided to bring that into a full fledged course. I mean, it's an hour, hour and a half long course, that we offer to all clergy anywhere on our website for free to any priest, to learn what it is in the confessional that it is commonly coming in things that they don't know, things that nobody's going to tell them. But we hear, as well as how to maybe approach, you know, the penitent, the person, the confession, as well as ideas of penances, of what they can give that that's, appropriate to what, you know, what's being confessed because so often. And this is which is why I started with, you know, the Five Keys to Freedom years ago, where I started with that for the reason of giving to the priest using confessional is that, of course, I went into confession with this one hundreds of times and, you know, three Hail Marys. And our father isn't going to keep me from coming back. Well, the confessional is one of the very, very few places where this behavior is revealed. It's a place that can be done. Something can be done about. It can be said. Now, the priests aren't expected to be counselors decision to place to where you can take, you know, ten minutes and counsel and work with the person. But you can say a sentence or two or ask a couple of questions to at least turn the tide and make them think about it, or give them something to make them think about what's going on or resource at that point. And that's that's what we're offering. And we we've been doing that for for many years now. Well, going back to your your story, Dan, you know, you were talking a little bit about, you know, the the part where you got married and I'm going to bring this back because this is something that frequently at covenant is we hear this all the time from people that, you know, they feel like when they're struggling with pornography, that marriage is kind of the key to solving that problem. And they go into it feeling really empowered that this is going to make it all go away. And unfortunately, all it does is bring it into the marriage and usually leads to great pain and suffering for both the husband and the wife. So I just want to touch on that. Can you talk to me a little bit about why we think that and how that actually is not the case, and what was your experience? Yeah. Well, it's the the problem is that when we believe the problem, the reason we look at pornography is because I need sex. That's what I'm designing. That's what I want. That's because it's about it's about the sex. It's about the pornography, which we, you know, kind of established. It's not it. But when you go into a marriage believing that that's the case, then I'm going to get married, I'm going to have all the sex. I get a real person, I get intimacy, I get affection or whatever. Then I won't need this anymore. And that might work for a few weeks, a month. But then soon as we established, we all have pain. And if you don't transform the pain, you'll transmit it. Well, you're going to be transmitting it. And soon as you're very intimate and very well known by your spouse on both sides, they trigger you. They know your weaknesses. They know the problems. They're going to be the first ones to point out your failures, and everything else. So suddenly everything is, is picked up, so to speak. So all of the, all of the issues that really trigger everything have been expanded. And they're now amplified in marriage. So in my case, I believe the same thing, but it actually got worse. And that's where in my marriage, you know, pornography and so forth ended up into, you know, affairs and prostitution and those kinds of things because I was just so desperate from beforehand. I was so desperate to be wanted. And loved and accepted and then getting into marriage. Now I'm sitting here with a person who I feel is just looking and pointing out everything that's wrong with me, so it's worse. So now I'm so desperate, I have to look elsewhere for it and that's that. Just turn it inside out for me and for me. It doesn't go quite that bad. But still they'll they'll turn to pornography and it'll get worse and worse. And too often it does go into extracurricular activities. You will. And there's so many statistics that that show that that happens. Yes. That's, thank you for elaborating on that, because that's such a, that's such a big thing that we hear about a lot. It galvanizes. I'm sure you do. Just marriage is going to cure me or ordination is going to cure me. Like. And the reality is, through the grace of God, you have to stop doing this. Yeah. No, I, I think right now would be a great segue to talk a little bit more about because you you have so many offerings. And I want to kind of dive into some of the best ones because the listeners of this show certainly are, you know, them selves struggling with pornography. Their spouses, maybe their, their child is, involved in pornography. So we have kind of a vast audience. But what resources and tools would you point some of those folks to that your ministry offers? The most part, our like our flagship program, which is an extremely in-depth program. It's called Restoring God's Foundation. You can get to it on our on our website. It's free. It's, starts with a self-study type of format. But so often, nearly 100% of the time, really, accountability is something that's very important, to do. So we have a sister, program called the Simon Community, where it's something to where our tagline is where your brothers in Christ help you carry your cross. And it's got, meetings every day of the week. Pretty much, except Fridays, I believe, where you can go in and zoom, have live meetings on zoom with, with other other members, and we have moderators that are running it. And generally, for the most part, they run a restoring guy's foundation. One of the lessons in there. So there's a, a purpose and a goal, you know, in each one. And there's, protocols which they go through of sharing and so forth. And it's so many people find accountability there. Support and so forth. And they use the program to go through, what we have, with that, we also have, working on it, just about to release a priest version of it. Because right now, unfortunately, you know, there are there are clergy out there that are struggle with this, too, and they really don't have a lot of places to go. They I talked to so many an issue. Well, I can't go to counseling, a charge, a diocese back for hundred and 50 bucks an hour. Then you'd better know what I'm doing. So we have, you know, secret private groups of these communities that will be for priests exclusively, just to help them go through this as well. And it'll be, you know, free of charge. So there's nothing to be tracked anywhere with that, that we can work on helping them. At the same time. So and then there's of course, the, the training for the priests to help them with the confessional. We have also, a program that we're working on now, called The Power of the pulpit to where we will be having some training and ideas and help for priests. How to address this from the pulpit more, where they have, they can do more than just a porn talk, you know, which is very difficult for them to do. They get a lot of pushback, you know, from the, you know, you know, from the families and so forth. And, and it's hard to do, but it's it's talking about how to bring about purity and chastity, as well as talking about confession and things in from the pulpit. And one of the things I talk about in the confession program to them is something that I hear so much is people don't understand how big of a deal porn really is. They say, okay, it's a sin, but it's a mortal sin. You know, from a Catholic perspective, I didn't know that. What, 99% of the priests don't talk about it from the pulpit. They don't talk about, you know, these kinds of things, but you can take anything that we will blend ideas into and go with the normal Sunday readings and blended into something that is of forgiveness and chastity, purity and so forth. Anything some like, for example, every year there's always a talk on the prodigal son and, you know, reading on a gospel reading. And the priest can say, you can easily just say, you know, a father like the father. And the story will welcome anyone back who comes home and wants to repent and wants to become back, back home, no matter what you've done, whether you've stolen somebody, something, looked at pornography, had affairs, you know, killed somebody, you know, had an abortion. Whatever you want. They can say all these things. They don't have to make it a porn talk, but you can kind of mention it through the through the topic and everybody sitting in the pews, which is probably 50% of the adults in there will hear that and go, oh, yeah, I can do that. I can be forgiven for that. And it can be very subtle, but just just mention that, make that point ten, 15 times a year and make them start thinking about it. And there's many other ways to get them to start thinking about these things. They can be mentioned from the pulpit and, but they can also do a porn talk if they want. And there's ways that they can present it. I had a priest once that, he prefaced it, at the beginning, a beginning, a mass, and said, we're going to talk about some serious issues with with chastity, and we're going to talk about some, very honest talk here. And all of the parents here who have smaller children. If you feel that you need to leave during the homily, you can do that. You can leave now, and we'll send the ushers out to get you when we're done. So you're not you don't have to worry about being offended. We have to worry about it. So, I mean, maybe we I witnessed that there's like maybe four people that left was all they left. And the priest basically unloaded. He was right between the eyes. This is what it's about. And this is what's going on. This is what need you need to know. And it was a great talk. But, you know, he basically said, this is something that I have to say, I am your shepherd. I am responsible for your soul. If I don't say something, I will be called to count in the end. We have to talk about this, and if you can't hear it, I understand. And here's, you know, here's what we'll do. And he he talked. He said it. So you know that that's an option that can happen. But it's got to be said. There's too many souls just getting tied up in this and getting lost. And they got to say something. I was right, there is an excellent soundbite for Safe Haven Sunday, by the way. I love this. I love this though. This Mike Rowe mentioned throughout the year. I think that's something, you know, we've talked to many ministry leaders over over the time here. And, you know, it's funny because it's like they always think it has to be the big heavy lift. Like the gentleman that, you know, the the priest that just did the big sermon series, you know, and really laid it out there. It doesn't have to be that sometimes it's just inserting. Mike Rowe mentions throughout the year in the appropriate places at the appropriate time, because the more people hear it and the more frequently it's talked about, then people will start remembering that, you know, this is okay. There are other people I can come forward. I can get, you know, help. I can confess my sins, all of these things. So I just I love that and I love that you're giving them tools. Dan, let me ask you this in all the work that you do, because I know you're working with a ton of people to help them find freedom from pornography. How do you also leverage a tool like Covenant Eyes in that process? Is that something that you guys recommend or leverage in any of the services that you provide? We do, we're actually one of the affiliate partners. So we, we promote that, and every chance that we have, it's a great accountability tool. It's a great way to, let other people see, you know, what's going on and to spark discussion, when you have a partner, see some behaviors, activities online that, you know, are, you know, less than ideal, and that you can set at a different levels. You know, I like that in different frequencies. So we promote that as a tool, among many things to use. And like, like I said, there's many tools to use. And covenant is a fantastic one that we talk about with that. But but end of day, you've got to get to the bottom. You can figure out what's behind us, what's going on, you know, what's the root of it? Why is this happening? And and, you know, covenant is one of the great tools that are out there and in my opinion, better than, than many. But it's, just a tool. That's right. And it's guardrails. Right. I feel like we need that even if we're in recovery from pornography, having those guardrails in place online really are important because, you know, Satan is not going to just stop trying to tempt us along the way, right? So we just want to put in every barrier between us and that sin that we can. And if you're an alcoholic, you don't want to go back to the bar. You know you don't because you know that the temptation is there. So yeah, I'm glad to hear that you guys are leveraging it as a tool in your ministry, because it certainly is just that. It's a tool that can really be useful in the journey. But I'd like to turn to these guardrails. That's something I have to remember, but it's something that we we talk to parents and they'll say, oh yeah, we have covered eyes, or we have filters on their devices, you know, we're good. That's a great start. But do you realize that's 5% of the answer? It's an important 5%. As it gets the first 5%. You have to use, but it's 5% nonetheless. You know, they said, well what's wrong? What's the rest? Okay. How much time you got? And that's how both with recovery as well as raising your children, you need both of the things that our organization and yours bring to the table accountability and education, the guardrails and relationship. Yep. It's all important. It's all critical. Well, this has been an amazing conversation Dan I love the work that you're doing and we are so grateful for your work, your ministry, your partnership with Covenant Eyes. You know, in closing today, would you like to offer our listeners some message of hope to kind of bring us home today? Yeah, it really I mean, hope is really a big thing. And that's one of the things that we try to try to reflect. I mean, the fact that, like I said, I've been through prostitution affairs, massage parlors, you know, the whole gamut was for 30 years I have come through it. I am still married. There's so many tools that, you know, we didn't even mention here that that can be in place that need to be used for all of that. But it is possible. I can't tell you how many, how many relationships and marriages I run into that are destroyed by so much less than I did. And it's like Satan won and he killed me. It just doesn't have to be that way. That's beautiful. Thank you. Theo, do you want to bring us to a close today? Absolutely. I just want to say that we are so, so incredibly grateful to have this relationship and this connection with Dan and, with Road to Purity. And we look forward to the ways that we will work together to serve the church, to serve the body of Christ. We had a wonderful, wonderful episode today hearing about Dan story. And, we've got a lot of lessons that have come from it. Suffering not transformed. Is suffering transmitted? Please take that with you. Understand how important that is. Set up the guardrails, but dig deep. Also, go to the roots and heal your entire person. For everything on the outside and everything on the inside belongs to God, who made us, who wants us to thrive, and who has destined us to live with him forever. And so, Dan and Karen, it is an honor for me to work alongside the both of you on this wonderful, wonderful mission. And it's also an honor to, be a part of this wonderful, wonderful podcast at this wonderful organization. Thank you very much. And to all of our listeners, thanks so much for tuning in to this episode. Please join us again on The Covenant Eyes Podcast and until next time, thank you, God bless. Take care and we'll see you again soon.