Hey everybody, welcome back to The Covenant Eyes Podcast. We're so glad to have you joining us. We have got one of our very favorite guests joining us for this conversation today. She is a pioneer in addressing women's struggles with pornography and sex addiction. Through her efforts She Recovery and so much more, she is a rock star. Crystal, how are you? And welcome back. I'm doing well. Thanks, Karen. Thanks Rob for having me on. Always love to be with you guys. Absolutely, Rob, I know that over the years, gosh, it's been so many years. We've had a lot of great conversations with Crystal, and every time she just brings the heat and brings the wisdom. Oh, absolutely. It's it's wonderful to have you back today. Yeah. Well. Crystal. What, what what have you been up to lately? I know that you are busy, always working on new projects and new resources for women, and you have been actively, doing coaching programs for many, many years. So talk to us a little bit about what you've been doing. Well, as of most recently, we are just about to launch our very first like She Recovery Recovery Coaching certification program. So it's our pilot that we are just we're really trying to get other people, trained in the kind of work that we do, so that they can start groups in their churches or help counselors to be able to be have a little extra credential, whatever that might look like. Just to branch out beyond just what we do, but to have other people doing what we do in the same way, because we can only reach so many people. As far as helping women, across the world and around the country. And so that program is coming up, at the time of this recording, we're about to launch it. So hopefully there's more information available for that at the at this time as well. That's awesome. So you're really creating a discipleship model where you train up others that can take this torch and move it forward. Oh that's amazing. I love that. Yeah, that that is the idea behind it is that we can we have our team and our team will hopefully keep growing. But we we would love to just be able to like you said, disciple others to do this work in the way that we do it, where we are, where anti shame and wholeness focused, and be able to help women to find the healing that they need. Yeah, and I think that's one of your keys. I mean, you often talk about, you know, just that holistic healing, that body, mind and spirit all in one. So how what does that look like when you're helping listeners? What does what does that concept look like for them? Yeah. You know, when people first come to us or women first come to us, you know, I think the there's so much emphasis on maybe the body perspective. So body mind and spirit is what is kind of the holistic approach we take. But there's so much emphasis on the body. I want to stop acting out. I want to stop watching porn. I want to stop the compulsive masturbation. And it's so much focused on the what they're doing as opposed to why they're doing it. And so the holistic approach to recovery is helping you to navigate to the why and heal the why, so that you don't have to go back to these behaviors again, not just these behaviors, but any new coping behaviors that may come out, because we know with addiction that transference is a thing, that you could have one addiction master it, get over it. But really you're just on to something new. And so a wholeness model is about helping you to no longer have to have a coping behavior at all. And so body, mind and spirit, it's working on, the brokenness of your body because it is broken. If you're using compulsive masturbation or you are, just disordered your sexuality in general, like your body is broken, but also, spiritually you're broken and emotionally you're broken. And usually the y component is something emotional. So you're using an emotional avenue, pornography, whatever, to heal, to heal that emotional issue. But it's not going to heal you. So you're, you're trying to fix that emotional problem with a, with something they can't possibly fix it. So, we like to work on the Y in terms of that. And of course we are from a faith based perspective. So the spiritual component obviously, is to have a surrendered heart to Christ and really give him your your whole self surrendering fully to him so that he can do the healing work in your life as well. So I love that wholeness model crystal. That's beautiful and I think it's so needed. You've been doing this work for quite some time, and I know that you have worked with so many women across all demographics, all age groups. Just talk to us a little bit about what you're seeing as far as changes in how women are struggling. Maybe with, you know, technology now playing a bigger factor in our struggles, whereas maybe 20, you know, you've been I don't think you've been doing this 20 years. You're you're not that. You're not even. That age. You're way young. But but you know, like a decade ago perhaps where, you know, technology was just kind of coming of age and things were a little different. What have you seen? Yeah. Well, to put that in perspective, I am 40. I turned 40 last year. You don't look at. And so, my exposure to pornography was magazine. So that's, that's, you know, what's a magazine like the way that a magazine is anymore? It's paper like magazines. And so, but for so many and looking at looking at the Barna stats, you know, the Barna data from last year talks about the fact that, you know, let's say 40% of Christian women say they're viewing porn. But to break that down into younger generations, millennials was 62% and Gen Z was 64% of women. And so I'm an elder millennial. I rather be a Gen X, honestly, because they were so much cooler. But I'm an elder millennial. But I but so for me, finding it was started with the magazine but then progressed to technology, where I, you know, now the younger millennials or the Gen Z years, they were just exposed with technology. And so I think when you're talking about technology and the rise of technology, we have these phones and tablets and gaming consoles and all these things that are in front of us all the time. Social media, the, the risk of exposure is so much higher because you're thinking about this in terms of, like the likelihood that I would be exposed at ten years old with a magazine was actually fairly low like that, maybe from a from a uncle or a grandparent. But my brother, I had older brothers, so that was a little bit of a have a higher risk factor to be exposed with a magazine. But to be exposed through technology is like easy. It's so easy. Just ads popping up, miss typing something and a Google search, you know, whatever. Like it's going to if you can be bombarded by it. And so for the women that come to us, we have a wide range of ages that come to us. We have women in their 70s and then women in who are teens, who are doing our coaching stuff. And so we have the wide range. But I would say we are seeing more and more of that millennial Gen Z kind of. We just did an intensive group, over the last 90 days, and the youngest was 21 and the oldest was in her 50s. But the brunt were in that, you know, 35 to 45 that that millennial age. And they were all talking about how they were exposed to pornography through the internet, like pretty much all of them. And so with the exception of the older we all, this one who was, you know, she was had sexual abuse in her background and with more, paper related. That's the start. But that younger generation that mine and younger is technology. And you guys are seeing that accompanied eyes for sure to families being rocked by by this. And just and so we do see that a lot. I think technology plays a huge role in it. In terms of recovery. You know, I started She Recovery at that time. It was Dirty Girls Ministries. Out of a desire to redeem technology, to redeem the internet. Because even for me, even though I was exposed to porn, you know, through a magazine, and it quickly became dial up internet and the regular internet, and I was using it online for, for years. And so for me, it was like, how do I take this, this, this space, this place is for so many women is a danger zone. Even being online can be triggering to women who are trying to enter, trying to be in recovery. How do I take this trigger in place and redeem it? And so that's why all of our services are virtual, so that you can go online and know that you can get a resource that's going to help you and not hurt you. Most people don't know how to measure whether porn is a problem. Well, now you can. Hi, I'm Mike Stone, producer of The Covenant Eyes Podcast. At Covenant Eyes, we have created a short, free and confidential assessment called the Pause Test. That's porn addiction use severity. It's not about judgment, it's about understanding. So in just a few minutes, you'll get clarity on where you stand and what your next step could be. So take the free test now at cvnteyes.co/test. That's cvnteyes.co/test. Super short super simple. Now you've got nothing to lose and everything to gain. Now back to the show. That's so good. I love the redemption of technology part. That's I think that's so important. And we we have the same mission here in Covenant Eyes. Of course. You know, I think it's it's fascinating too, because the way that you integrate using technology to connect to women all over the country, maybe even all across the globe, I'm not sure if you're expanding in that realm, but yeah, I just think it's amazing that you're able to bring them together, because no matter where we are in the country or what our backgrounds are, our struggles and our exposures are seemingly relatively similar. I mean, we are, you know, especially if you're younger than, you know, 45, you are seeing this stuff pushed into your face nonstop in technology. How are you teaching people to navigate? Because, I mean, we have to work. We you know, a lot of us have to work. A lot of us have to go online for our jobs. And, you know, we just have to live our lives. We need to stay connected. How are you teaching your women to navigate that carefully and with integrity? Because it can be really hard. Yeah. You know, obviously we we recommend Covenant Eyes, as pretty much exclusively in terms of IT, accountability software. And for those who need filtering, that's there as well. But, I think for us it's you have to learn how to live in the world, but not be of the world. We talk about that a lot in Christian circles. And so we have to kind of be a part of the internet without being in the internet, like, or be the internet or not being a part of the internet. And so it's kind of similar where you just really have to be mindful of the, what you're allowing in. And so that can be like, this is Instagram the best place for you in early recovery? Because while pawn's not allowed on Instagram, as far as rules, it's still there. There's still plenty of content that is triggering and inappropriate. And so it's asking yourself, you know, you can't live in a bubble because we all have to work and live and be a part of the culture. But we get we don't have to be just like, inundated with by it. And so for them, it's a lot of what steps can you take to safeguard yourself. And so for early in early recovery, it might be that you're not on social media. It might be that you are. You're using coveted eyes for the rest of what you're doing. Screen accountability. Making sure you have a support system in place because you can't do it by yourself. So, so, so you can try to, to seek to have recovery by yourself, but who is really going to hold you accountable if you were able to hold yourself accountable or you would have by now. And so, being able to be so big a part of our groups in our community, you have kind of a built in system to have people you can reach out to when you're struggling, but also who might get your report coming at eyes and be able to reach out to you and say, hey, I got this. Are you struggling right now? Like, what do you what's going on? But and so for them, it's going to be navigating technology in, in whatever kind of whatever, whatever boundaries they need and wherever they are in their recovery. Another aspect was it was so many women that we've talked with over the years, that heightened sense of isolation and, and a shame because thinking that this is a men's issue that I'm struggling with, in, in, in the church, we have been slow to really kind of recognize the struggle that, that so many women are going through. Do you feel that's beginning to change a little bit? Is that improving or where is that issue right now? For a lot of women? It's that I was listening to you ask a question. I'm thinking about, you know, how long I've been doing podcasts, interviews, or how long has been radio interviews and people asking me that, that same question. And it seems like every time I mass, it's like, well, the church could do more, the church could do better. And I still feel that way. You know, I think about the demographics of women who come to us as She Recovery and let's say, you know, 95% of them are Christian. They are finding us not from the church. They're not learning about us from the church. They're learning about us from social media. A Google search. They're online and they're looking for help. Maybe a counselor knows about us. We get a lot of referrals from counseling agencies as well, which is great. But they're not being told. I heard about it from my church. And so I'm not saying that the church is doing advertising us, but at the same time, they need to be not advertising, but talking about pornography. I talking about sex, not all from the male perspective, but that this is an issue of both men and women. I could see I just answer your question. I think I do see some improvement in that. I know I've seen some like in our website, demographics, like our, our stats. I we'll see some, some links from churches. So some churches are kind of having a resource page and they're kind of showing options of how to get help. Covenant Eyes on a lot of church sites. I've seen that. And then I'm also seeing every once in a while, you know, a lady will come to us and say, my church wants to sponsor my coaching or wants to sponsor my counseling or wants to sponsor my membership. And so that is, I'm not sure if it's the church that is instigating that or that person's just asking for help. And so there the church is willing to provide that resource for them. But so in that way I am seeing improvement. But of course, there's, there's much, much, much room for improvement. You know, that's what I as a whole. Yeah. I hope someday we have you on the podcast. And actually the conversation is different. You have a completely new answer for us. Like, you know, the churches are doing so much, so much better. Yeah. We can't even keep up that like we are helping so many women. I, I mean, that is really seriously though, that is our prayer because, I mean, it is it is discouraging sometimes to just know that, you know, you joked about advertising these programs and it's like, but, you know, I mean, we see like that in there. No downfall at all. But Dave Ramsey's, you know, a Financial Peace University. They promote those things. These are programs that actually help change lives as well. And so I think churches can embrace the idea of promote in your organization in that way. Because really it's not something that's not you know, I look to my pastor for ideas on good books to read, or if he mentions a film that he saw that he thought was really a quality Christian film, I will, I will watch that. So I think there is a role that the church can promote programs. I mean, I advertise, you know, no, but you know, definitely having resource pages, I love that. So it's good to hear that there are some churches doing that. If a church is listening or a church leader, or maybe just a leader is listening that wants to engage with connecting you to their their church or their ministry programs, how could they reach out to you? Crystal I mean, honestly, the easiest way is just through our website as She Recovery.com, we can send you some resources. So if you're wanting like brochures or business cards, something more tangible that you can hand out, we can be happy to send those to you. But ultimately, you know, just a link, you know, a QR code on your, on your big screen. Like, that's enough just to say these are, these are resources that are available and, check them out as, as the, as you can, as you need. So absolutely, that's a great idea. And you know, as you know, pornography is completely devastating marriages. And now that there are so many Christian women struggling with pornography, we are seeing marriages where both parties have pornography in their history or in the present. How is that changing the dynamic of marriages for young people? Are you seeing that in your work, working with women? Yeah, I was just talking about this recently that, we've always been really predominantly single women as She Recovery, but I, I'm seeing more and more married women coming forward. If initially, I think I'm not sure if it's an increase so much as it's maybe a again, a new comfort, maybe that's coming forward. Because I know before it felt like women were coming to us because they were there was a lot of shame associated with just, because so much of the Christian mind or Christian culture is like, well, I am married now, I shouldn't have a porn problem. Whereas like when you're single, it's almost an excuse, like there's a little bit of like that kind of that tension. And so I think a lot of married women have not come forward one, because they think they feel like even more shame because they are married and like, so I'm married now. I shouldn't be watching porn. They should be taking care of my now. Whereas the other side of that I think might be joint baking accounts and just wanting to expose themselves for getting the support that they need, their husband maybe not know about their struggle. And so they're not wanting to kind of expose what they're doing financially. And so but I think we're seeing a little bit more bravery, but more bravery, maybe, but also because there is the tension or the dynamic of both are struggling. Maybe there's a little bit more safety in the now. My husband has confessed. So now I can confess like it's a it's kind of a duality there. So we're seeing that as well. I do see within our practice, you know, a lot of couples coming in now, which could be and I'm not privy to those sessions, for as far as the ones who were getting the cut of the couples coaching. But what I felt from from what I can, guess it's a lot of mediation. It's a lot of conversations about why she's struggling, how he can support her. If he's struggling, how can she support him, things like that. And so I guess so to answer your question more briefly, yes, I am seeing, more wives and I don't know, again, I don't know the reason or the why other than the increase for women watching porn. Is probably coming as part of that. Interesting. Yeah. Well, Crystal, as we kind of begin to wrap up here today, do you have any final words that you would love to say to maybe some listeners that are out there right now that are struggling that, you know, I just kind of in silence and shame. What would you say to them? Yeah, I'm actually going to share a scripture if I can. Psalm 34 five is those who look for him for help will be radiant with joy. No shadow of shame will darken their faces. And my whole approach has always been again the anti shame. Like if you're struggling, you I know what you're feeling because I have I have felt that feeling. I know exactly what that feeling feels like. And I know also that shame is so unhelpful. Shame is going to keep you stuck. It's going to keep you in bondage to your addiction and your struggle. And so if you feel like you're alone, you're not alone. We talked about the stats already from Barna Group. Like millions of women are struggling. You're just one of millions women who are struggling. But you can be one of hopefully millions of women who can be set free, who can find wholeness, who can find healing. All you really have to do is seek it, and find resources that are going to be anti shame. We're going to lift you up, but also not hold you where you are, but to implore you and empower you to heal. And so yeah. And we long to be a part of that if we can. That's awesome Crystal we're going to bring today's episode to a close, but we want to make sure that our listeners know how to get in touch with your ministry. I know you mentioned your website, earlier. And then are there any additional resources? I know you have books. Things like that that you can also point our listeners to in the closing statements. Yeah. So She Recovery.com is where you can pretty much find everything that we have to offer, including our virtual coaching and counseling services. But also, you know, books like Diaries to Wholeness is available on there that I wrote a 90 day devotional that will walk you through the first 90 days of recovery, or 90 days again, depending on where you are in your recovery journey. It's also available for free on YouVersion, so there's no cost obligation. You can just hop on and do that and, go with go through recovery with faith based in mind. Crystal, again, thank you so much for joining us. And to our listeners, thank you for listening again today. Please share and like this. And, look forward to seeing you again in the next episode. Thanks. Bye bye.