Welcome back to The Covenant Eyes Podcast Karen Potter here. So good to see you all and to hear from you. We love getting your emails all the time and hearing from you. So please continue to send those in. Send us your questions. Also send us your guest ideas. Anything that you've got, we'd love to hear from you. Today's episode is going to be a great show. I have got Theo joining me again, and we are going to be having a wonderful conversation today. Karen, thank you so much. It's always a pleasure to co-host alongside you. How are you today? I am doing fabulous. I'm really excited about today's podcast because the gentleman we have joining us has a wealth of knowledge and wisdom, and like many people that listen to this podcast, he has a story of his own. Like many men, Steve Pokorny was exposed to pornography at a young age and struggled with pornography compulsion for many years before encountering freedom. In response to this transformation, Steve was inspired to found Freedom Coaching in 2011. Steve holds an MA in theology and a specialization in catechetics from Franciscan University in Steubenville, as well as an MTS from the John Paul The Second Institute for Marriage and Family Studies in Washington, D.C.. Steve is a certified life coach from the Life Coach Training Institute, author of Redeemed Vision Setting the Blind Free from the Fortified Culture, host of the 12 part video series Redeeming Our Vision Unformed. Host of the Redeemed Vision podcast, as well as an internationally known speaker speaking with a wide variety of audiences on many topics. Let's welcome Steve Pokorny to the podcast. Steve, thank you for joining us. How are you today? I'm blessed. Thank you so much, Theo. Thank you, Karen, an honor to be with you and to share with your audience. Awesome. Well, Steve, can you share with our listeners a little bit more about how you got started with the ministry, the freedom coaching, and a little bit of your story and your background? Sure. So I would say, necessity is the mother of invention. I was hooked for over 12 years. And like many people, when we get into a compulsive behavior, it's because of a wound. And that was certainly the case in my life. My father was out of the picture by the time I was 12. By the time I was five, from a failed suicide attempt. And, I would actually lose my parents, both the cancer when I was in high school and smack dab in between that was exposed to pornography first, from a bag of ripped up, hardcore images that were laying and, you know, on the ground about eight, eight, eight, doors down from my house, then my, the next year, a, a childhood friend, his parents had pornographic videos in their, bedroom, and there was no education there. And that was shared there. And then the internet would hit, right this, this progressive doorways moving down here would get me attached to this. And so as this, compulsion is growing, this, there's an interest, right? There's there's an attraction because as we're, as we're growing up. Right, these desires get eroticized. But if there is an appropriate education about human sexuality, about what does it mean to be human, it can get us into trouble. It was certainly for me. And as I said, that attraction is there. What else was growing was guilt, shame and self-hatred. And, this this desire to want to love was being desired, replaced by a desire to use. And so many of I began actually blaming women, because if you wouldn't dress that way, if you weren't beautiful, I wouldn't have this problem. So what this is what we see oftentimes in in many cases, the pornography does not create us into lovers, but actually create us into those who actually hate women, hate beauty, hate real love. And that's what was being formed in me. I would actually enter in to go to, go to the seminary for four years where the there was nobody was talking about this. The formation, human sexual formation was very, very low on there. And so I felt like a woman who and again, I'm being Catholic. Right. We're very familiar with this idea in many cases of going to confession and like, a woman who, having an abortion, who knowing she's forgiven. But week after week and hearing the words of absolution, not being able to forgive herself, that was me. I thought that I would have to carry this to rest of my life. Well, God had other plans. And through a series of events, there was healing. And one of those profound events was I was led to Franciscan University of Steubenville, Ohio, where there's festival of Praises. And I heard a very important phrase from in during one of those festivals

19, behold, I'm doing something new. Do you not perceive it? Streams of living water will begin to flow. And, Theo and Karen, I had been drinking from the septic tank for many, many years, shall we say, of pornography, and which influenced a lot of unsafe behavior. And, and then I'm receiving the body, blood, soul, divinity of God in the Eucharist. But then I'm realizing about two weeks later, it wasn't just Jesus, it was the father. It was the one that I had had thought had abandoned me way back when I was age five. No, he wanted to hold me. He wanted to reveal his love to me, to say that you, Stephen, are my well beloved son, in whom I am well pleased. He he wanted all of me. And in that moment, as tears are coming down my cheeks, it happens. Boom, boom, boom boom. These chains hit the floor. This desire to use my sisters was transformed into a desire to serve them, to love them. Right. Well, that lasted about four months. Okay. And then I sink back really hard into the septic tank. And it was because God wanted me to get to the root. And the root. Basically, how to get to the root was through three things. One was through, something called for Fosdick prayer, which the, the emotions we have especially stemming from trauma, our our our our church, we want to get to the root. And I would do deep intensive prayer to get to those. Second was I was I discovered something called intensive trauma therapy where it sounds scary. It's not. It's drawing and writing and it was the first time my life I actually talked to somebody about the issue of pornography, what was going on that how that it influenced a lot of my behaviors. And so many of the, I like to say the scales fell from my eyes. And then third, discovering, especially through Saint John Paul, the Second theology of the body, this great gift of unveiling God's plan for us, but also discovering through that, the church's beautiful vision of the human person to be able to see the human body and that, in fact, the naked human body, not in a lustful way, but in a wholesome way, a holy way. And from there all those scales fell from my eyes. And then realizing what I had gone through. Right. So the first and foremost, there's, so the desire to lust. I don't want that. I don't desire that it's not there. It's in fact being being transformed. I'm not saying I'm perfect. Talk to my wife. I've got lots of issues I'm still working through. Right. But this is not the issue here for me. But then also realizing God made it very clear what I went through was not just meant for me, but meant for the world. So in 2011, again, necessity being the mother of invention, I was teaching, doing marriage preparation here in the Archdiocese of San Antonio. Guys would come up. I've got this issue. What I do after, I would give my testimony and say, I don't know, I guess I can help you. And very quickly finding there's a format, there's a process, there's a, there's a, there's a path in which to be able to walk people through this. And then what ended up happening was, slowly but surely, freedom coaching would be, would be developed. It would be born in 2011 and then in 2018, after I was a lone wolf for a while, second coach would come on. And now we have 13 coaches working in seven languages worldwide, and we're just getting warmed up. So it's an honor to be able to share about that and all. Glory to God. Thank you for your vulnerability there and sharing. Your story. Sorry you had to lose your parents that way. And in many ways, I'm sorry you had to go through that. Although, one of the things I was thinking about as you shared your story was, something that my pastor in church has been saying a number of times recently is that, you know, good can come out of tragedy. Sometimes the worst things that happen can really become the best things. And look what you've been able to build, from everything that you've went through and you're helping a lot of people. One of the things you said there toward the end, was that, there's a process. And so it sounds like, and correct me if I'm wrong, that you've kind of so you have you've built have you built freedom coaching based on this process that you mentioned? And if so, could you describe that process for us? Absolutely honored to. So, so what is freedom coaching? It's 1 to 1 mentoring designed to break the attraction for both men and women of unconscious behavior of of porn of five images through a transformation of mind, heart and vision. So we it's four stages we are working on stage. One is it's called reintegration. We're looking at a client's, past, past events through an emotional lens. It's the emotions that keep us locked in so we can give all of the techniques and strategies. Right. We can give people Covenant Eyes. We can put them on web filters or accountability software. But if we don't actually address the three headed hydra guilt, shame, and self-hatred, it won't stick. And Theo and Karen, I'm a type A guy. I want to solve the problem. How do we solve the problem? Right? I don't want to just put a Band-Aid on it. So what we do is having a conversation about just the emotions of the events of the past. This drops that drawbridge, and then we introduce them to our chief psychologist. His name is Jesus. You might have heard of him. Okay. He then goes to work on them. And, and these clients start getting full paragraphs things have been longing to hear. I like to say the ear plugs of their heart have been removed. They can finally hear these things. And there's healing. Profound healing happens just in stage one. Stage two is a dive into the neuroscience pornography. So there's many chemicals that are that come up, dopamine, norepinephrine, things like this, that it's the same chemicals as in healthy marital intimacy. The same chemicals are there in pornography viewing, but a very different, response that comes after that. And, and so by clients just knowing this, learning this, doing this, dive into this, this helps them understand why they can't break free on their own willpower, why they've got to do things differently. So if stages one and two is a breaking down, stages three and four is a building up, this is where it gets really exciting. Exciting because what we're doing. Right. If you want to break a habit, if you want to change a compulsion, put something better in its place. Well, what is better than this? Well, it's three elements. It's intimacy, identity, and it's vision. And that's going to cover this last two stages. So stage three is identity formation for you and Karen. I think you both were in high school. We can make some really stupid choices when we don't know who we are. Right. That was me, and I didn't know who I was. And so what we want to do is help our clients really dig deep and understand who they are. That you are a beloved son or daughter of God. We might have heard of this going to church right for years, right? And it's found in Genesis, things like that. But if it doesn't come true to us, if it's not hitting home to us in our hearts, we're not going to buy it and we're going to we're going to, we're going to hold, hold ourselves at bay from that because it's too painful to go there. But we've removed a lot of those wounds, so now we can receive that. So we come to discover our real identity and the way to discover that live, that is genuine intimacy with God, with oneself and with others in very healthy ways. We do need to move from this place of isolation to communion. And that's what's so devastating about pornography. Those who are hearing this right, you're trying to hide. And guess what? We're called to enter into relationship with others, with those who are earning our trust. This is critically, critically important for for lasting healing. So identity, intimacy. And then the third piece, vision learning how to see what we say with a redeemed vision. Right. So, stage four is vision coaching. The reason why an incredible number of men, an increasing number of women are dealing with this issue is because they're blind. If we're blind, we cannot see. If we cannot see, we cannot love. If we cannot love, we can fulfill the very reason we're on the planet here. And so, sadly, many people are heading blindly, led by the blind, into a ditch and it's internal ditch. Right? So we like to say we get to work with some of the most broken men and women who are trapped in this hell of pornography. That's leading to a lot of unconscious behavior, and to walk with them to freedom, to help them to learn how to see. So how do we do that? We do a deep dive into beauty, into art, and learning how to see this is part of my Byzantine background, right? And I'm entering into deeper every day. And what happens is in, especially in learn how to see the body, even the body uncovered appropriately. There are healthy ways, such as the art that I have behind me. That's the sacred and the profane by Titian. Right? It's something beautiful. It's never pornographic. Right. And so, unless we can be able to be trained in this will fall forever for anything. But guess what? If we're trained in the truth about the human body, and because we want to see, we want to see beauty. And oh my gosh, may I may dare to say this on a Christian podcast, we we desire to see nakedness right? Well, then go ahead and learn how to be, to see true beauty, true nakedness. And what happens is scales fall from our eyes and the things that we're where are my focus goes my energy flows. If I'm focused on the good and this becomes a part of me, what used to attract me so much is just boring. It is empty. It does not fulfill me. And then what this does, it moves us not from a place, staying in a place of isolation, but then into a place of self gift. How do I pull myself out in my vocation, either to marriage or maybe I'm called to be a priest or or a sister, or in whatever ways, even if we're just a single person? How am I called with my body, with my sexuality, to give my wife as gift, to lay my life down as a as a ransom for others, as our master Jesus Christ did. Right? So that whole process here, so what we get people who come to us, we want the people who say, I've tried everything, I don't want to get free. Those are the ones that we want to talk to. Because why? Well, we've been there and we know how to walk this pattern. So path and we've got, on staff, we have those who are some of my own personal clients, some people who have, found a way of free, from this in other ways. And then we have those who this is not has not been an issue. But there's so impelled by mission and what we do and they're also really good at in, in working with others that they're part of our staff. So, just grateful and humbled, the little miracles in big miracles that we get to see every day. I love that in that process, it feels like a journey that really leads to true and lasting freedom. One of the things that we hear most frequently is, you know, how long is this going to take? You know, how long do I need to suffer and go through this? And often we want quick fixes. We live in a society where everything is instantaneous gratification. But talk to us a little bit about true expectations on the journey to freedom from pornography, and how we can really set ourselves up to be on this journey because it is a journey. It's not going to happen overnight. I mean, the Lord can do miraculous things, don't I mean, let's not underestimate the power of our Lord and Savior. But for a lot of us, it's going to be a journey and it's going to take time. So talk to us a little bit about what that looks like. Great question Karen. I don't know if I've ever really been asked that, but that's a this is so important. We we live and I'll, I'll jump off that. We live in a microwave. Let's pop it in the microwave. Easy quote unquote food, which I would argue is not necessarily food or we have a sickness. We don't just pop a pill and go through this. And I think we're we're part of it. We're we're afraid of suffering in many cases. Right. Our world, and that's why pornography has such an promises, an easy illusion. Basically, do this, enter into these images. Not real, but it's a fantasy. But we're empty. But we. But the way to this is not to escape the cross, but go through that cross. Right. But also, let's make it very clear. God, it's been said. God always forgives. Man's sometimes forgives. Nature never forgives. Right? So there's human. So yes, prayer is a part of that. I'm a big part of prayer. And I know that we pray here, which is beautiful. And we need to do that. We need that relationship with God. But we also have to work on these human elements. Right? Right. In the sense here, there's the brokenness here. We can't ignore the place, that trauma place here most of us are coming from. Well, excuse me, the term dysfunctional family is redundant statement. Everybody's got brokenness in their in their in their families where they're coming from. Right. So let's be real about that stuff. And how is it impacted us? How did mom and dad, how did they live out their married life or not live it out? Are we coming from from divorce? Are we, are we, how is sexuality presented to us? How do we talk about these things? Was pornography in the home in a in a in a proud way I know of we know of clients as six year as six years old. Pornography is around the house. Right. And it's and it's a lauded here that's kind of form a person. Right. That's going to impact the way we enter into relationships. So the way forward to that it's all about relationship. And relationship is not it's it's a crockpot. It's not a microwave. It's it's walking with someone. So I think that's where the strength of what we do comes in is discipleship. We're really walking with that person here. So with our process specifically Karen, we say, stages two through four are about 15 meetings walking through that formation. But stage one, that's appliance history. Working through that stuff takes a journey. And it's it's gut wrenching at times. Right. But it's really worth it because guess what? What if we can have joy? What if we can have peace? What if we can be comfortable in our own skin by ourselves? I don't I don't have to worry about what somebody's looking over my shoulder, what I'm watching online because I don't desire that stuff. But then also, most importantly, I'm doing I'm I'm spending more time offline than on, yes. Because I want real relationships. I want to be in person. It's a tragedy for you and Karen that we're not together in the same room doing this, and then afterwards we can go get a beer or whatever. Right. Apologies to anybody who has that, who's struggling in that area. But like, we want these real relationships. I want the high fives. The body really matters in what we're doing. So I would say to those who are wondering, like a quick fix, gentle, be gentle, have a lot of grace here. Know there's a journey to go through here. And it's and this is one of the monikers. We say it's not just about quitting, it's what we do is simply stop the behavior. But we don't change. Then what good is that really? Right? What we want to do, what we say is don't just quit, be transformed, break the power of pornography by putting something better, way, better, way satisfying in its place. Thank you for that. And one of the biblical images that comes to mind when you talk about having to look back at your history, which can sometimes be very painful and gut wrenching, as you said, is, that scene in the Old Testament where, the people of Israel were bitten by the serpents, and yet they had to place the serpents, and yet the way for them to be healed was for the serpents to be lifted up or, you know, make a bronze serpent, look at them, and then they would be healed. And Jesus even uses that image to compare that to his own crucifixion, right? Just as the serpent was lifted up. So what must the Son of Man be lifted up? It's like we have to look at those things that seem painful. We really have to look at them, though. And that's where the healing is. And so that's really a really amazing that you incorporate that into your process. It's also amazing that they're able to do that with your, accompaniment and with your coaching. I think it was, Chris Stepanek who said, your mind can be a dangerous place. Don't go there alone. So I'm sure that's true of your history in some ways as well. But, one of the things I want to, get into with you is, I just want to look at some of the typical techniques. As far as, you know, accountability software like Covenant Eyes and then things like, prayer, confession, the devotions of the church. How do some of these things fit into, your coaching and into recovery as a whole? Yeah. Great question. So again, I want to think I want to think covenant this because I think there is a, there is a place, for these things. But I think the danger that we can get into, right, is, if we put our faith in technology, technology will fail us. It's the same mentality. I'm gonna. I'm gonna pop this in the microwave, and I'm gonna get fed, or I'm going to take this pill. We going to be very clear about that, right? Is that, it's a it's a human and divine solution here. We we must not see it. Prayer is really important. We've got to enter into very important the relationship with Jesus Christ. I we've tried working with a Jew and a muslim and apologies to them. Jesus needed to be a part of that. And they said no. And I'm going to respect their their freedom on that. So we do need to pray. We need to enter this. But also what is the human element we need to look, look at? I like to say the term of c a SAP community, academic, spiritual, apostolic service and physical. Are we working out? Are we taking care of ourselves? Right. All those different things are going to play a role, play a role in here. Right. So but but we have to we have to remember if we don't pull out the wound, if we if we don't have the roots here, the, the the the go after the bullet, shall we say, if we're trying to just put, put a I'm going to I'm just going to use Covenant Eyes, but I'm going to ignore the different areas of the light of my life and not take a good, hard look like that. The scripture, right, of seeing are serpents for what they are. That's how they got healed for seeing the, the savior for who he is. Because many times, and I know this in the Catholic world and in other, evangelical and non-denominational areas, right? We want to put God on our terms. We want to make we want to make an idol out of God. And so we make an idol, in fact, of these coping mechanisms of thinking that as long as I do these things, then I'm going to be healed. No, the answer is, am I willing to get spiritually naked? Am I willing to open up this? This hurt? It's been said that the place of the wound, if we allow this to happen, if we allow the place of the wound, is the place of the healer, is a place of healing, where the healer can come in. Are we willing to allow that to come in? And to use the one other analogy of the, the wine in the wineskin, right? As Jesus says, you can't put new wine into an old wineskins. So all we can say about that, but very briefly, it's at anytime we see wine in Scripture, it's that image of God's love. Well, if that is, God's love, what is a wineskin? It's our hearts. At the end of the day, it's about, are we willing to have a transformation of heart so that this new wine, this new way of living, this new way of perceiving, giving, of seeing reality comes in here? And here's the paradox. Because if you put a new wine in the old wineskin, the grape juice ferments and the wineskin, which is brittle and heart hard, bursts, while the new wineskin is going to be, going to be, fleshy, it's going to be able to stretch. And here's the ironic thing. Jesus wants our wineskin to burst, not burst because it's been destroyed, but burst with joy that we take this joy and we go share this with everyone. And that's what happens with when we're living a chaste life, when we're doing this here. So I would say, what's in front of you? The. Because we have fear that if I, if I, if I let another person in here, if I allow them to see me, you won't like me and you're going to leave me. There's a the wound of rejection is very, very real. But this is why we're opening this up to people who we can trust. His wife, Covenant Eyes is can be very, very powerful for somebody who's not going to condemn me, who's not using this as a weapon, say, hey, I got you. You messed up again. No, I want to I want to be very real about where you're at. But then also, we want to move beyond just mere technologists say, all right, how do we actually get this healed? Right. And it's going to be through genuine relationship that that's going to happen. And so good. I, I love that and I love, you know, the thing with Covenant Eyes is I always think of it and I've said this in previous podcast, but in the way that I talk about it, it's really guardrails that we put in place that kind of protect us on our technological journey, because despite our best efforts, these people are attacking us. My mind, you can just innocently being online on Instagram, and you're going to get fed all sorts of things, right? So I always like to think of Covenant Eyes as just the guardrails that we put there. So that temptation, you know, has a wall. At least it's got to run up against this wall and fight hard to get through. So with that, though, I want to pivot a little bit. You mentioned a little bit earlier when you were talking about the techniques, and the strategies that you utilize. You mentioned a little bit about taking care of the whole self in a way. What do you incorporate that also helps people address the physical side, because while you're going through recovery, certainly you've got to take care of your body with nutrition and, you know, exercise and all of the things. Because when you take away what you've been using, you know, for dopamine and serotonin and all these things, you've got to replace those good feelings with something else. And obviously we feel that with Scripture and, you know, all the other activities. But how does nutrition and health and wellness fit into that to keep a person on that journey going strong? Awesome. And I think this is a great question because I think, oftentimes we want to live as two people body here, spirit over. So one of the things we'll actually start off, talking with, with our clients, is we talk about what kind of what kind of foods are we eating, and specifically we're looking for sugar because they find that there's a connection of, of of food, anger and sex in the brain here. And if one's out of control, all the other ones can be out of control in the, in a lot of the the sugars are increasing our, our perspective and desire for dopamine, which is really interesting. Right. And dope means the pleasure chemical because we're made to eat pleasurable food. But the problem is so much of our food is so processed, so much our food. There's actually, they find plastics in some of our food, especially if we're microwaving things. It's why I don't recommend microwaving. Just a little side note here. But the, but along those lines, like, take a look at your sugar. Can you replace those with naturally occurring sugars, honey, fruits, various vegetables, things like that. I remember somebody very close to me did a four week fast, and and the first thing he ate afterwards that was sugar was blueberries and said, oh my gosh, like, we've lost this taste for things. And it's it's connected. I mean, food is connected with the human sexuality, right? There's things like aphrodisiacs and and when those can be used in improper ways but also proper ways. So in the sense of like, we want to get back to resetting here. So how can we get back to a baseline of, of, of getting our dopamine in a good way. So we'll also help them. We're focusing on what are you listening to. So we'll put them on a, on a, on a whole routine, get them on. And just listening to Christian music because a lot of stuff is really dark. And the thing again, where my focus goes, my energy flows. If I'm focusing on a lot of the negativity, the negativity of the world, what I'm spending time with, I become those things, right? And again, if all were in in Eden is is negative and ugliness, then what happens is we're looking for a way to, solve for that. Well, pornography is an easy option, especially if we're not paying attention to what we're watching, if we're just allowing things to to come in unfiltered, we're going to fall for those things. So I would say the third one on the on the aspect taking care of our body is getting involved, maybe in a, with a group of people where we're, we're going to be focused on working out, maybe get involved with the sport I love. I used to love ultimate Frisbee. I'm just way too busy for right now, right? All those different things where we can develop our our relationships in the midst of taking care of our body, but but also then all of those things is, is tending to our inner sanctum to tend to. So we can tend to our inner sanctum so we can live inwardly, so we can act outwardly so we can be present to others instead of allowing all the noise of the world to affect us. I am taking care of myself here, which is connected to eating right. Oh, and also very importantly, what is your sleep schedule like? Are you getting it at least I would say about well, I'm at six hours, so I'm cheating on this a little bit. But I would say most people need between 7 to 8 hours. Some women actually need about nine hours of sleep, right? What is that there? Because when we sleep better, then we're going to be able to enter into life better. That's awesome. Thank you for sharing that. And I think all of that is so important. Yeah. And you mentioned, you know, the sugar the glucose spikes I mean those things drive us into emotional swings. Our moods go up and down. And that's not helpful to us in our journey. So I love that you incorporate all the different pieces and one of the nice things too, about getting active. And it helps you develop community, right? Like when you go to the gym or you join pickleball or whatever your favorite sport might be. Yes, you're around other people and developing relationship and and developing friendship and, and sharpening those community skills. I think technology really dulls those skills because we don't have to be face to face with people. So I love that you incorporate the whole body, mind, body and soul into your program. Thank you so much for sharing that. And honor and honor. Thank you. Karen. One of the things that I would just say for our listeners especially is that when you see when we have guests on that share their story, pay attention to the fact that there's always a kind of woundedness, not only does our wounds, allow us to meet the healer, but also our wounds can be a means of grace for other people. One thing that was pointed out to me was that after the resurrection, when Jesus came into the upper room the second time and Thomas was there, who refused to believe the first time, what was it that ultimately got him to believe? It wasn't merely that the superhuman went through a door, it was, let me. I need to put my hand in the wounds on his side and in his hand, and Jesus let him do that. And then that's when he said, my Lord and my God, wounded are. So our woundedness can really be a source of transformation for others. And I think that's something that every one of us here on this podcast, both are experiencing. And in doing this work, we're able to, help other people. So again, your your willingness, Steve, to be vulnerable about your past, but also, now create something new with, freedom coaching and help other people in this way. What a blessing. What a blessing. Thank you for taking your own woundedness and turning it into a means of great good for the world and for the church. Thank you. And if I if I make this comment and then I think we can of all kind of hope, I guess just on un wounds or do a whole seminar on it. And if we want to I mean, I'm in, I'm totally in. But like I encourage those who are hearing this, go look up Caravaggio, Caravaggio's image of when a Thomas meets Christ and what we find is in that image. If you if you look carefully, Jesus actually is grabbing Thomas's hand and jabbing it into his side. He's pushing it in here. Be not unbelieving, but believe. Right? Go into the wounds. And I think the the lie that we've been fed, especially a lot of guys, is I have to have it all together. Big boys don't cry. If you show emotion, you're dead. And certainly this isn't about going to the gas station and emoting to the guy at the counter as you pay for your your gas. Please don't do that necessarily, unless he's your counselor. And that's a whole nother thing, right? Why is you working at a gas station? But within this whole thing. Right. There's spaces in places where we we have called open this up and this is one of the things I've learned is as being, as being the founder of freedom coaching, but also growing our team. He must increase, I must decrease. It's really not about Steve Pokorny if this is about Steve, because we're in deep, deep trouble. This is about the the healer coming in here and having his way and allowing him to do what he needs to do here. But in this in this factor is it's I've learned, especially as as being this leader in this, in this, arena, it's leading from a place of weakness, which sounds really strange because if you unveil that, they're going to crush you, right. Well, I don't show that everybody. But to those who are around here. Right. There's times in which I've messed up, right? I've made a mistake in our in the way we're doing things, or we haven't have handled a project the best way. And I'll come out and I will apologize and I will be very real about that. But then I'll say, okay, now here's how I'm taking ownership of this. And I think this is especially why, for instance, using Covenant Eyes is is an acknowledgment of taking ownership of the problem, of realizing that I've got this issue and I know this is this isn't solve is not the magic ball. It's not going to solve the problem. But it can be a means and a way to be allow me to be open to others. Right. So I think for all of us, it's a question of are we willing to be honest? Because the two things that God can always work with are humility and honesty. Humility is acknowledging who we are in the sight of God, and honesty is just being real. And can we just say it? I'm not okay. You're not okay. We're not okay. Let's be not okay together. Right? Then we can actually start to get into these things. And what happens is, yeah, when we have those right, then this opens the path to three other words humility and honesty. Now three other words to to healing, to hope, and even to holiness. To holiness is to be who we are in the sight of God. Remember, the church is not a museum for saints, but is a is a hospital for sinners is the phrase goes right? That's all it was. All the great saints were amazing sinners, right? Amazing sinners. Saint Augustine will just pick on him for a second, right? He's an adulterer, right? He had he had was in orgies. He had, I think, two kids out of wedlock. Right. Major thing. And if God can work with that, and if then he can work with me. And if God can help get me healed from this, this, this entrenchment of 12 years a slave and into pornography, 12 plus 12 years. He can get you healed as well. The question is, are you willing to have the humility and honesty to open these hurts, to open these wounds up, to allow the healer to come in so that you can see miracles happen in your life and the lives that you're going to interact with. That was beautiful. And I think that's a great call to action to our listeners. Are you willing and are you willing to take those steps to be vulnerable and to let someone see that and be transparent? I love that. Well, Steve, as we bring today's episode to a close, I want to make sure people have a way to reach out to you and your ministry. So tell us where they can find more information about your programs. Sure. Thank you so much. So if you head over to our website, freedom dash coaching dot net, we're on all the major social medias. We're even in the sewer TikTok I know, but I at Redeemed Vision, that's where that is unformed. We've got a 12 part series called Redeeming Our Vision, which is great for parish work. It's a free, as long as you got access to form, it's free in there. And then also, just shoot us a message. We can get you on and on our newsletter and, keep in, keep you updated. We have lots of different events that we're involved with. Amazing. We'll make sure to put all the links in the show notes, because a lot of our listeners are possibly driving or maybe even at the gym doing something. So we want to make sure that they have access to that after the show. Steve, in closing today, is there a message of hope that you want to leave with our listeners? Maybe a call to action that we can just leave everybody with as we close up? Yeah. Yeah. You are not what you do. You are a beloved son or daughter of God. Pornography on chase behavior may have been a part of your story, and maybe you're part of your story right now. And the guilt, the shame, the self-hatred is real. But guess what? God's grace is way, way more real. And if you will open up that hurt, open that wound up to get real with those who are earning your trust, you're going to find something way more satisfying. And then if you allow this process, this process of transformation of mind, heart and vision to take place, you're going to be a new man, a new woman. And the question is, what's that worth to you? Are you willing to enter in? Are you willing to do the hard work to rely on grace, and then to rely on others so that you can get to a place of of true, true joy, of true freedom, of a true blessing? The choice is yours. That is a great way to close today's episode. Theo, I want to thank you for joining us today. It was a joy, Steve, to get to know you and for you to share your story with our listeners and the work that you're doing in your ministry. God bless you in everything that you do. And thanks for joining us today. Thank you so much, Karen and Theo, for the honor. And may a blessing be upon all those who. Thank you so much. And to all of our listeners, thanks for tuning in to this episode of The Covenant Eyes Podcast. Be sure to like and subscribe. Be sure to also share this with your friends and family. Let's help set more people free from the bondage of pornography. Take care. God bless.