Hey, everybody, welcome back to The Covenant Eyes Podcast, Karen Potter here. I've got Rob Stoddard joining me. So we have a great interview. We do excited to talk with pastor Mike Varney. First of all, welcome to The Covenant Eyes Podcast. Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah. So could you tell us a little bit about yourself and your ministry and what you're doing? Sure. Yeah. So I live in Appleton, Wisconsin, just south of green Bay. So whenever the Packers are playing on Sunday, church attendance drops. I'm not sure if everyone has that experience. Married for 21 years. Married my first ever girlfriend. Her name is Kim, so I'm one for one, which is great. We have two teenage daughters, Brooklyn, a Meyer, 16 and 15, and the lead speaker for a media ministry called Time of Grace, which I've done for about six years, and I've been a local pastor for 18 years now. Wow. That's awesome. Okay. And you've got a new book that just came out, correct? Yeah. Yeah. So talk to us a little bit about what the book's about. Yeah. The book is called

Topics Christians Should Be Talking About, But Don't. Ooh. Enticing topics. Alright, I love this. Yeah. So the premise was that what I experienced in my own journey with pornography is really applicable to lots of people's journeys with lots of things. Yep. Which is we have a problem or we have a question or we have a sin or we have a struggle and we think that, that me and Jesus are going to handle this together. We think his grace is sufficient. I just need more Bible. I need more prayer. And that I, I can still like, manage my reputation and don't have to say embarrassing things to other human beings because God is going to help me through this. Yeah. And in my long journey, did you know that doesn't work? Are you familiar at Covenant Eyes? I said. Yeah. If you just make a covenant with your eyes do you? Yeah. I mean, as long as I tried to fight and I mean, to this day, I have memorized 1 Corinthians 6, 1 Thessalonians 4, Matthew 5, all the thick scriptures on lust and things really didn't change for me until, until. Yeah. As you could probably guess, I told someone. Yeah.

16. Yeah. And what I found in my church is that as we tried to tackle, whether it was pornography or sexual intimacy in marriage. Yeah. Homosexuality, abuse, abortion, race, politics, depression, suicide. That people generally would not talk about these things until we started talking first. That's right. And so the premise of taboo was let's start conversations that make us sweat and that are uncomfortable because I have a hunch if we throw out this boomerang, it's going to come back. Absolutely. And that's really what we saw happen, is even though I'd been someone's pastor and sharing the gospel for years, sometimes over a decade, they would never tell me that part of their story until I would start the conversation. Right. So that's kind of where we found our niche. Let's start awkward conversations with humility and an open Bible and lots of Jesus and see what comes back to us. I love that. Yeah. And it's so important. That's why I like sharing your testimonies at church. And all of that is so valuable because we always want someone else to go first, right? And so then it makes us feel safe to go next. So I love that I love that. Well, you've been a pastor for a really long time, so you've experienced a lot of different conversations specifically about pornography, and you've had your own struggles. What are some of the, tips and tools that you have used with people as you're walking alongside them and helping them through that? Yeah. Two things I find myself, three things I find myself saying all the time. Number one, don't assume the gospel. Very often we're looking at porn. We want to stop. So we're really focused on behavioral change, which is a huge part of the Christian life, but it's not the primary part. So I've really been shaped by 2 Corinthians 5 that it's Christ's love that compels us. Yes. Titus 2 gets to that same idea. How do we live self-controlled, godly lives? It's not just by a stick to beat us or shame. It's the love of Jesus working itself out of our heart. So I always love saying that when someone confesses a struggle to me, I will deadlock eye contact and say, you know God loves you, right? And I always say the same thing. Yeah, I know, ba ba ba ba ba ba. Hold up, hold up. Let's start over. Do you know that God loves you, right? Like his acceptance of you was not based on how well you were doing with porn. It was, is, and always will be about Jesus. So number one for me is the gospel. Number two is living in the light.

16, confess your sins to one another, right so that you may be healed. So I say, Confess to Jesus for heaven. Confess to other humans for healing. That's what that's what I experience. And I think that's what you guys are all about. Absolutely. And then the third thing I tell people is be a detective of your own sinfulness. Meaning when when do you fall into porn? Is it is it always at night after a long day? Is it your husband or your wife goes to bed and now you're just scrolling and double screening at. And one thing leads to another. Is it a certain platform? Is that a certain? Do you take your phone into the bathroom? Right. And normally there are patterns that our brain kind of gets stuck in these ruts where at the end of the day, I have a glass of wine, I sit down. I didn't I didn't intend to, but here I am again. And so very often, instead of just waiting until you're face to face with that temptation, I'm going to fight it this time. There's often, like, four dominoes back where you can make a much easier decision and say, you know what? If I just went to bed at the same time as my spouse, I probably 90% of the battle would be done. Yeah. So that's kind of my three step process. Let's start with the gospel that you know you're forgiven and loved. Let's get you in a community of other people, like with Covenant Eyes. And then let's be a detective of your story and see where we can maybe even avoid the battles by making smarter decisions on the front end. I love that detective mentality, because really, I mean, there are those triggers that lead us into our temptations like that. So. Exactly. It really is, it makes perfect sense. Know it's in. It's. Yeah. You're speaking to. I mean, people that that's what we proclaim all of the time. We are right. Lockstep with what you're saying here. Those all are needed. All those steps. We do have to run from that behavior. We need to stop it. But if we're not running to Christ in seeking his grace and help, it's almost impossible for us to beat it ourselves. And then understanding, you know that. And that's where a lot of times accountability will come in, in, in really help us if we get friends to walk alongside and really understand those triggers. And yeah, set some game plans in place to help us begin to attack this. You're right on. There's so, so true. What it's so interesting to me is when I get to step two about finding an ally or a partner, very often the person is right there 95% of the time. Yeah. They just haven't asked yet. Yeah. So, like, can you think of someone that you kind of like a trust that loves you and loves Jesus? Yeah. My brother or I have these two buddies from school. Okay. You haven't talked about porn yet, but I have a hunch that if you brought it up, it would go well with you, right? So I would say the devil is the father of lies. And here's most believable lie is. Just don't say that. They probably judge you. Just be quiet. Probably gossip about you. As soon as you left the room they would probably. And all these assumptions that confession is going to backfire on us. I think that's the most part. It's so easy to believe and in my experience, in small groups, in church with my own story, it just hasn't. That's never happened to me. God's people, believe it or not, have actually been good. They're not all hypocrites who are just going to stab me in the back and shame me. They actually like preaching the gospel to me. Yeah. And so just reminding people that, like, you probably have some good, you know, same sex friends or family members that you could talk to about this and they, they want think less of you. In fact, I bet the relationship would be closer. Yeah. Yeah. What are the one other area that I want to dive into? Your book, Taboo. Really talks about the church and not being able to to talk about these things. You know, we work with the church day in and day out. And according to Barna, only 10% of churches have any kind of ministry to deal or help people in this area. Another stat, 84% of confessing. People who are using pornography say they have no one to help them with this addiction. So you've got people who are struggling and shame and silence in a church who is silent. Yeah. Tell us a little bit how does the church begin to raise the awareness of this issue? Start talking about it. Make those safe places for people to come forward and get help. Yeah. Your pastor. How does this happen? I know this question. So years ago, I got my my doctorate and my final project was preaching on pornography. I still remember the ceremony because, like the guy before me was the theology of Jonathan Edwards for the years this. And it was Mike Novotny preaching on porn. I think I like Mike. Yeah, this feels practical to me. I love it. And what I found is that if you're a preacher of the Bible, it's right there. You you. Ha! How many pages can you get through the story of Abraham or David or the Corinthians, or the Ephesians, or the teachings of Jesus? Like, you don't have to be picking a minor point in the biblical story. God is throwing you slow pitches if you're preaching through books, if you're doing series. So I would just say, say what the text says. There you go. Have the courage to know that the sins that people struggled with 2000 years ago are still happening today. Yes. And if you want to shepherd the souls of these people who are often not believing in the gospel could be true for them because of their shame, they think they're the exception. Yeah. Yeah. God. Well, you say that, pastor, that God forgives me, but you don't know what I looked at last night like, one of the best ways you can is just to name it and then apply the gospel to it. So have we done series on pornography or sexuality? We have, but I don't think you need to do that. You just need to preach the Bible and not skip the verses that make people uncomfortable. I love that. I love that. Well, how do people get connected with you and your book and your ministry and all the things that you've got going on? Yeah. So our ministry is a time of great. So a time of great story is the website. On Amazon. Is the book, Taboo? Okay? Which is based off of 29 sermons that we preached on all the things, and we try to do it with lots of truth and lots of grace and Jesus. Okay, great. Well, we'll put, links to that in the show notes for all of our listeners. And would you mind leaving our listeners with just a word of encouragement or hope as we close today's podcast? Yeah, I would I would love to. 2000 years ago, when Jesus died on the cross, he knew about you and he knew about that. So if you think that you or that can separate you from the love of God, Romans 8 says, there's nothing in all of creation the past, present, angels, demons, anything that can separate you from God's love in Christ Jesus. So I'll say to you what I say to so many people that our church, you know God loves you, right? Because he does. Love that love. Well, thank you, listeners, for tuning in to this episode of The Covenant Eyes Podcast. Take care. God bless. We'll see you next time.