Welcome back to The Covenant Eyes Podcast. Today's episode we are going to be interviewing doctor Mark Denison with There's Still Hope ministries. He is a former church planter and senior pastor for over 31 years. He's been a university board chairman several times, and he's authored over 12 different books. He has a new book out called Advanced Recovery. We're going to dive into that book and so much more today. Stay tuned for this episode. You're going to love it. Doctor Mark, it is so good to have you back on the podcast. We're really excited. I know you've got a new book that we're going to be diving into today, because as you know, there are so many books out there to help people with sex and porn addiction, but keeping that sobriety over the long haul is something that is a little bit lacking. And I think your new book kind of addresses that, so I'm really excited to dive into it. It's called Advanced Recovery. And it's out now. You can get it in Amazon and all the places you buy books. But let's talk a little bit about what inspired you to write this book. And we'll dive into a little bit of the recovery cycle that you go into in the book as well. Yeah. Our turn. Thank you and appreciate the opportunity as always. The thing that have been weighing on me for some time is that as a guy that's been in recovery for a number of years and worked with a lot of others that have been as well, is that it seems like there's a lot of material that's available for people in terms of how to write the porn habit or unwanted sexual behaviors, how to find freedom, especially early on, but not a lot that it's been addressed to the guy or the woman who has long term sobriety. And so I was intrigued to see if there was any research that would suggest that maybe there's a little bit of difference there in terms of what it took to get sober and what it took to stay sober. And what do we do for the man or woman who's already got long term sobriety so they can finish strong five, ten, 20 years from now? And so that's what really inspired me as I moved further to my own journey of recovery, and I was working with more and more guys who were as well, sort of like Paul talking about for a believer, the milk versus the meat, the rudiments of the faith, mature faith. And what does that look like for mature disciple? What does that look like for someone that has seasoned recovery and found some interesting things that I think are really beneficial to those that that want to dive into this for the long haul. In fact, so much so that we did a monthly webinar, based on the Bible so that once a month people can join us as we unpack the different aspects of advanced or long term sobriety. That is amazing. Oh my goodness. I love that you're doing like an ongoing webinar for that too, because people that are, you know, into their recovery journey many, many years still need to be connected with others that are on that journey. And so your webinar really fosters that community element that I think is oftentimes lacking. When you've actually been on the journey for quite a while, you kind of, you know, you age out of some of the intensive programs, but where do you go from there? Well, in your book, you talk about a recovery cycle. Can you explain what that is for our listeners? Sure. You bet. Patrick Carnes uses a little more academic language in this. He talks about four different phases of the cycle. But for me, trying to just kind of keep it really simple, very, very practical. I see the six things that we just keep, cycling through and Advanced Recovery where we get off what I call the crazy train. It always starts in the mind because what I think today is what I'm going to do tomorrow. So the six phases of the cycle, I think it, I plan it, I do it, I hate it, I cover it and then I go do it again. So I think it fits in my mind. There's a fantasy, there's a compulsive thought. There's an image. The optic nerve, the mind, that attaches the eye to the brain, takes that snapshot. I I've got this visual that's out there, so I take it that I plan it, I start asking myself, how am I going to act out based on what I'm thinking? And then I do it. And then and invariably, especially for believer, I hate it. No one ever looks back and says that look at porn or that hook up with another person. Whatever form of acting out it was, was a great idea. We always hate it. And then we cover it because we think we're never going to do it again, and then we repeat it and we stay on that cycle until we break the cycle by breaking through with the principle. So as we unpack in this book or other principles that get us on the right course. So I take it off planet, I hate it, I cover it. I'm sorry, I think it, planet, I do it, I hate it, I cover it, and then I do it again. Wow. Okay, that makes a lot of sense. In your book, you discuss habits of those who have Advanced Recovery, and that's kind of intriguing because I don't think that gets talked about a lot. Can you highlight a few of those habits that people who have been in recovery for a while, have and do? Yeah. So what I found really interesting about this was that I tend I think most people probably do this. We look at recovery through our own lens. What was my experience? How was that in for me in terms of the habits that worked for me? Well, I try to set that aside and really dive into extensive research. And so I looked at a lot of projects, a lot of research done on this, not just in the sexual area, but American psychological Association identifies over 150 addictions that were behavioral over substance. And so looking across the map with a focus on unwanted sexual behaviors, I found ten habits that were very consistent among men and women who seem to have long term sobriety. One of those will not surprise anybody. And that is, accountable building. They maintain accountability, which is why our ministry promotes covenant so big. I just had lunch today with the guy, so you got to get on there because you do not have accountability and a long term recovery. What happens with so many guys is they feel like they've gotten to the place where they've not looked at anything inappropriate for several years. They're not acted out in any way that not looked at things, not done things. And so they bring down some of the guardrails. Long term sobriety really works. Advanced Recovery. What we found in our research is that guys treat the guardrails a little differently, meaning that in early recovery we say, how close to that guardrail can I get without going off the cliff? And Advanced Recovery? We say, how far can I stay away from that guardrail? And so that means I'm going to stay on Covenant Eyes, even though I may not need it, but I'd rather not find out that I did. And so accountability is huge. Two more that to me are huge habits that we found. One is starting each day with a win. There's an admiral who wrote a book, Make Your Bed, meaning that every day I need to do one thing. And so one of the habits we found was that guys, before their feet hit the ground, they prayed the serenity prayer. The third step prayer that sounds like prayer. They read a devotion on recovery. They do. Something doesn't have to be big. It's usually not, but something to put a win on the board each day. Advanced Recovery never takes their foot off the pedal or the way I like to say it, we keep our foot on the pedal, but we also have to make sure that the car's in gear that's in drive, and so it's not enough to do a lot of things. I've got to make sure it's in gear when that morning starts. And then another one which is going to sound a little odd, is to eat well. In other words, good self-care. And that's not because people that eat well, by definition are not going to act out sexually. It's because there's a length. That kind of person establishes good habits in one area. That's going to have good habits in other areas, because, as you know, porn is not a bad problem. It's a bad solution. It is a bad problem. It's mostly bad solution. There's other stuff going on. So practicing habits of self-care, such as eating well, lead a healthy lifestyle, which feeds healthy sobriety. Wow, that's really interesting. And those are some really good habits that we do see. Those are common things that obviously people who have been on that journey, they do exhibit those characteristics in those habits. So I love that that you're kind of wrapping that up. And you said there's a total of ten of them in the book, correct? Yes. Okay, great. Well, and in the book you also talk about an advanced scoreboard. So talk to me. What is that and what does that look like? I'm a big sports guy and always had been like sports memorabilia. Been to, you know, all kinds of games. Not a lot of athletes and baseball is probably my favorite sport. Then the interesting thing growing up watching baseball is there's a zillion stats. You can go to the game that got all the numbers out there. How many hits do they have? How many runs, how many errors, how many fly balls, how many strikeouts? You see all these statistics, advanced metrics. And so they call it. You also see on the scoreboard the attendance of the game that day. Well, it's a guy who was a senior pastor for 30 years. I slowly evolved in my thinking that says that the way we measure success in the church is generally what is the attendance in the stadium? If I've got a bunch of people showing up to watch me play ball, then my church is doing well. Well, who would ever say that in baseball you don't go to a baseball game and say, we won the World Series because we have more fans than you do. And yet that's how we measure success in church. And so as opposed to how many runs are we putting on the board, what are we doing in missions and outreach and evangelism and ministry? So I apply that to recovery and realize that. And the scoreboard that we use in recovery in most groups, especially 12 step groups, has a sobriety date. And that's fine. I go to 2 12 step meetings every week for my own recovery. I've been sober for over ten years now. I continue to do that. Why not always do that? They're so-called secular groups, and that's a fantastic way. But in every group, we go around the circle and are asked the question, what is your name? How did you act out? What is your sobriety date? And so I get my sobriety date of January 29th of 2015. And people hear that I give you a chip for that. And they say, good job. That's great. And that's part of it. But Advanced Scoreboard asks questions like, am I pursuing God? That's harder to measure. Am I helping someone else? Am I the person my dog thinks I am? It's one of the questions I ask how am I treating my wife? Am I treating my son? What am I doing to help others and their recovery? Where's my daily time with God? Like am I doing a recovery day once a month? Which is something I really advocate for? Am I taking someone else along the journey with me? Those are tough questions because they're not as easy. It's a lot easier. It's. But I haven't acted out since a certain date. So did that scoreboard says how am I doing? Not just am I sober in the moment? Or how long have I technically been sober? Guys and have Advanced Recovery are doing well, and their depth and their breadth and not just their life. That's a really good point, you know, because it's it's easy for us to kind of white knuckle and count how many days we've been free of something or, you know, changed a habit or broke free from pornography, but it's not as advanced, like you said, scoreboard kind of metrics that actually matter, going deeper at a deeper level, I love that. That's great. So in your book, I believe it's in chapter 11, you focus on something called The Man Code. So let's talk a little bit about that. What is it and how does that apply to Advanced Recovery? You know, I appreciate the question. As I think all our listeners know, the opposite of addiction is connection. And that's when when guys go to meetings to find sobriety. My observation I've been in thousands of them, is that what draws us is the content. We're there because we're here. They're doing the 12 steps or they're doing a certain period is our course, or we have ten groups. We use our own material that we've written. What is that content? But what keeps us coming is the connection. We've got to have that connection. So what does that connection look like for Advanced Recovery? Well, the greatest example I could think of to try to follow would be Christ. And so we look at his life, not just his words, but how he loved his own life. And we start unpacking that. We discover five numbers that we call the man code. And if we can crack the code, we see what mattered to Jesus in terms of human connection as well as divine connection. So there are five numbers. The numbers are one, three, 12, 120 and 5000. Now right away, for most who know their Bibles at all, they'll know exactly what that means. But here's what happens we get out of balance. And what I'm advocating for is an Advanced Recovery that we maintain balance. The number one, Jesus focused on his father. We know in Mark chapter one, Jesus went off to the mountain early in the morning to pray. The disciples knew where to find him. Find. Luke answers that because it says, when he went to the mountain, he went as was his custom. So Jesus focused on the one he spent a lot of time with the father. I've got to spend time with God. So the 12 steps have a spiritual component. That vertical relationship, the number one. The number three is the inner circle. Jesus took Peter, James and John places that he didn't take any place else when he raised his daughter from the dead. Peter, James, and John were there, Mount Transfiguration, they were there, the Garden of Gethsemane. They were there. No one else. Just love story. What that says to me is that I need that inner circle of accountability. I need those 2 or 3 people the same sex as me, in my case, two or 3 or 4 men that can ask the hard questions. I spend more time with them. And it's it's kind of like Paul's relationship. He had Peter who was ahead of him. Barnabas was with him, Timothy coming behind him. We need those three men, the inner circle. The number 12 is the small group. I need to be in a small group, either a church or preferably also a recovery group. The 120 acts, chapter one represents the church. I am shocked by how many people claim to have a walk with Christ who are not in tune with a local church, and then the 5000 is the community I need to be plugged into my community. By that I mean the community at large, not just the body of Christ. So in Jesus we see that he's doing loving, loving. Loving in and out of his entire ministry. All five of these, the one, the three of the 12, that 105,000. In my recovery, I want to emulate that and be connected in all five ways. And I've noticed in my research what we did for this project that God should have. And women who have long term sobriety are connected in all five. So there's got to be balance. So we call it the man code. That is cool. And I think that is so applicable. So would you say like if you see a guy who's going through a recovery, program or is in recovery and they're not surrounded by a group of, you know, the three and they're not spending time with God, would you be concerned that maybe that's that the recovery journey is not going to stick because they're not following that principle? I mean, is that kind of a red flag to you? If you see something like that? For me, it's not a concern. It's a done deal. I see them as one is in a pre relapse stage. Got an email in the middle of the night from someone just like that. That that's the one part missing for him. Was that inner circle of connection and accountability, you know, which again, is one of the great benefits of being on common eyes is that guys destroyer of pornography, they've already got their allies that are out there, you know, advocating for them and holding them accountable. So yeah, if they don't have that or any of the other numbers, then, and they can be doing great in other areas, but they've got to maintain that balance. Absolutely. You know, it's interesting because I was looking through the Barna study that came out last year, the new one on pornography. And in that study it said 84% of those who identified as struggling with pornography on some frequency said they had no one in their life that was holding them accountable or that knew of their struggle. And so what we need and what people believe that they have in their lives is somewhat different. So what would you say to someone out there who feels like they don't have anyone that they can talk to and bring into that inner circle that that group of three that they need around them? Because the statistics kind of show us that people feel very isolated and that they don't have those people. What would you encourage, those people to actually do in their life differently? Be relentless until they find those people, because some of the two ditches, my view that we fall into one is we grab onto those three to and the others, we give up and say, yeah, we grab on to the wrong ones too soon and say, hey, can be my buddy, can be my friend, could be my accountability person when it's not a good match. Or we just give up because we don't find them right away. When we connect a lot more quickly than men do. We know in the church, for example, that when someone joins a church, on average they will leave that church or become disconnected within six months unless one thing happens and that is that they establish six genuine, authentic relationships. Same thing, true in recovery. And we also know that when people join any group, doesn't matter what it is, it could be a recovery group. It can be a Sunday school class, it could be the Civic Club. If they've not established those relationships, then they're going to fall away. And if they miss three meetings, they're probably going to fall away. So be relentless. There are so many, materials and groups and resources out there that there's not a good excuse to not find those three. Absolutely. I think that's really important. I mean, perseverance is definitely something that we're instructed to have. And to do. So I think it is important that we, you know, don't just give up and say, well, there's nobody we got to keep looking for that person. And the church is a great place to be able to connect with people like that. Or you have groups, in your organization and there's still hope. There's ways to get connected with other people that can help us on our journey. So other listeners out there don't give up. If you feel like you don't have anyone in your life. There are so many organizations and ministries that can help you get connected. It's funny you say that because when we started groups a few years ago, I my goal was I wrote a book called Life Recovery Plan. It's 52 weekly topics, and I thought maybe we could find some guys that will stay with this for all 52 weeks. 80% of them stayed with me for 5 or 6 years now, however long I've been doing it. Wow. And they don't bring their book to the meetings, which greatly disappoints me. I'm thinking this is so good. I'm so brilliant. They're good on what they don't care. I don't care what the topic is. It's all about connection. It's about accountability. It's about relationships. That's beautiful. I love that. So in your book, you talk about something called a silent assassin. It sounds very intriguing. So talk to us a little bit about what that is and what your book really discusses at length about. You know, in a word, it's pride. When I get to the place in my recovery where I say, I've got this, I don't need accountability anymore. I don't need to be going to meetings anymore. Pride seeps in and I'm in trouble. One of the things I've observed as I've networked with other people that really concerns me is, is guys and women who are in leadership roles for ministries like ours that are trying to help others in recovery, who feel like they graduate to the point where they're helping but they're not being helped. And invariably relapse occurs and then everything crumbles to the ground. And so the thing I'm always preaching to people is that I can't give away what I don't have, and I need to emulate this, even if I didn't need it myself. I mean, I've been going at the same 12 step for a very Thursday night for ten years. I could not begin to tell you the last time I learned something I didn't know, I don't know. It's been a long time since we've read the same stuff. All the time. It's good stuff, but I'm there because I go in every meeting with the simple prayer, Lord, let me hear one thing today I can use tomorrow. And what I might hear is that Johnny across the room is struggling. I need to go talk to him for a moment. And so the silent assassin is the pride that says, I don't really need this anymore. I've arrived to where I can help others. I don't need help much at all, and I may get to that point. I doubt it, but I never want to find out. I want to always stay as far from that. That guardrails I can so I'm always reading every day recovery material, every day prayer in this area. My life, my recovery Bible is sitting right there on my desk right now. I never go a day without it because I know I've got to. The resources come on out for the best on the planet. The guy would be crazy to ever think he doesn't continue to need that. Real, real quick story I was when I was pastoring, there was a there's a lady in my church that one Sunday after the service, she said, would you like to meet my son? He is in town, and, he like to meet you and he of the church. And I said, sure. So I went over there. I won't say who it was. Me as a professional wrestler, and it was a name anybody would know. And he's still a huge, huge, huge, huge name. I don't know how I missed him in the service because, you know, the guy was bigger than the sanctuary. And then he wanted to wanted to visit. So I go to this lady's house. Her son was in town and the guy was actually a retired wrestler then. But as I'm looking at, this guy is 65 years old at the time, and he's still around now. And I've never seen a guy that looked like this. It was unbelievable. I said, how do you do this? And he started telling me about how he works out every single day at 65. So he didn't get to a place where he said, I've won a world championship and I've been a professional world champion bodyguard. You know, this now I'm just going to rest on this. No, he continued to push forward with it and that's what we have to do. Pride says I don't need to, but recovery says I never stop. That is some wisdom right there I love that, that is so good. And pride is really one of those sneaky things. But you know I think all of us, regardless of what we're struggling with, that can creep in and really lead us down a path of destruction. Because, you know, when we think we don't need the people around us any longer or that we've graduated to a different level, I mean, we see it all the time in ministries and in leaders in general in our country, where they just get to a level and then they think that they're above reproach. And that's so dangerous for us as Christians. We don't. That's where the enemy likes to sneak in and shoot those fiery darts. Well, in the final chapter of your book, you talk about, five deadly signs to watch out for. So, you know, that sounds very clickbaity, but I think it's important that we cover those five deadly things, because these can be really instrumental to, people who are in recovery kind of fall to, you know, falling and getting themselves into a situation they don't want to be in. So let's talk through those five things. Sure. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks, Karen. You know, again, this is research. This isn't just my own opinion of what I think might ought to be going on or is going on or my own observation, although in the book, part of what helped inform this was that, I interviewed over 40 people that have extensive periods of sobriety over 200 years total. And so in addition to over 200 footnotes from looking at so many other projects have been written on on sobriety and long term recovery. The number one sign that we found of of trouble warning sign is missed meetings. Guys that are in a group and they just quit showing up. They're not there as much. That's a huge warning sign. It doesn't mean they relapse. Of course not. But it's a warning sign they're falling away or something going on. The second sign was kind of talked about the Silent Assassin. And that's graduation. I've got this chill. I've achieved this milestone. I've got a busy life, I've got kids, I've got grandkids, I've got a lot going on. I haven't relapsed in a good while. And so I've just kind of reached this plateau. Graduation mentality is a terrible sign. Another one is secrets. As we often say, addiction cripples. What secrets kill. Secrets are. We're really strong. Our secrets are. Secrets are terrible because secrets are nothing but lies perpetuated. But within the heart of every addict is this emotional, relational desire for two things. I want to be fully known, and I want to be completely loved. But I think that if you really know me, can really love me. And so I harbor secrets because I want to be loved and accepted. But the person you're loving isn't really me. That's the Facebook image of me, because you don't really know me. But we play these mental games, mental gymnastics, and we hold these secrets. Which is why I'm a huge proponent of full clinical disclosures. And we do them with our ministry because the wife of the of the addicts or the husband needs to know this stuff, needs to know who they're married to, can have secrets. When people harbor secrets. Big warning sign two other signs. One is defensiveness. When you ask someone the hard question, and I do this all the time because of Covenant Eyes, as most people probably know, if you're an ally, you'll get a report. And when it's a green thing and a green dot, it's like, fantastic. This guy's doing great. Don't have to worry about it. I get a red dot and I get 31 reports a day. Oh my goodness. I got to pour through all these. I spent an hour every morning going through my eyes. Report. And so I get a red dot. Doesn't happen a lot, but I know what that means. That's pretty clear. It's the yellow dots are driving me crazy because those are the ones you're not sure. And so you ask the person, I just need to ask, why were you at this jewelry store that I saw your jewelry store? Why are you watching this show? I'm not saying you did anything wrong. I'm just asking the question. And when? When the person responds by saying, oh, it's buying something for my wife. I'm glad you asked me that question. Or I was watching the show or whatever. That's great. But when someone says, why are you asking me that? Don't you know who I am? Don't you recognize and defensiveness? The concern is not what do they do or what do they not do? It's the attitude, which is how wives always know. When her husband relapsed. I think it's because the attitude is defensiveness. And in my wife tells one all the time, don't get hung up on what you can prove that he did or didn't do. Trust your instincts. So when someone's defense, the last warning sign is a critical attitude. When someone becomes critical of everyone else in other recovery ministries and what other people are doing it, and their church and their pastor and their recovery later, the attitude of criticism is a huge red flag that there's something going on inside. There may not be a relapse, but that might be. And so we've got to check into that pretty quick because those are five deadly signs. Those are great to keep in mind. And I think, you know, for a lot of our listeners out there that maybe are an ally or spouses that are out there, those are things to keep in mind. Certainly, as warning signs. I think that's good to know. So, you know, you work with so many different people and you've been helping so many, whether ministry leaders or just, you know, congregants in a church. You've been everywhere helping all sorts of folks. People do fall and they do stumble. So, you know, how do you help someone that's dealing with a setback or a relapse? You know, maybe had a long stint of recovery and now is dealing with a setback like that. How can you help them or what advice do you have for them? The first thing I tell them, not well, I appreciate that question, is to pick up where you were. Don't judge your entire life and recovery by one bad day or by what happened, even though, relapse is a process, it's not that there's always things leading up to that event, but don't feel like you've got to go back and start over. Like all the work you've done didn't matter. It didn't matter the things you learned, the principles you've learned. If you're running a marathon and you fall on the 14th mile, you don't get up and say, oh, shucks, I better go back to the starting line. You dust yourself off and you pick up right there. I'm sure there's someone out there that from the moment the Holy Spirit convicted them of their need for recovery, they never had a setback. I just haven't met them. And so I always encourage God's living grace. We have an enemy. He's going to beat you up. He doesn't need your help on that. So pick up where where you where you fell off. The second thing, if they're responding to some sort of relapse, is to adjust your program because we know that your current strategy is perfectly suited for the results you're getting. And so I have a relapse prevention plan for my own recovery, and also have a relapse response plan so that I already know that if I have a relapse, there are certain things I'm going to do and that works as a deterrent, but also gives me accountability. I've got 175 guys in my ten groups. They all know it because I tell them it's all the time. If I have a relapse, part of my relapse, accountability for that is that I will tell each group, this is what happened. I'll step away from the ministry, at least for a while. My wife will know. My therapist will know. I'll have to. I'll go do another disclosure. I'll do a polygraph. I've got that in place. I'll go to more meetings. That's a main thing. Change the program. Because if I have a relapse, it means something wasn't working. And the last thing I've kind of said is already is don't define yourself by that. No one ever beat themselves up into a better place. I've got to always move forward. Not not move backwards. So when I work with guys like this and every week there's a dozen guys I'll talk to have had a relapse. You've got it. Start where you fell off. Work on the program. Step it up, but don't beat yourself up over this. You've got to move forward. That is really good advice and very encouraging as well. I love how you're just pointing people to start where they fell instead of going all the way back. And your analogy of a runner that makes perfect sense. Well, doctor Mark, as we bring today's episode to a close, I want to point people to where they can get their hands on the book and also how they can learn more about your ministry. Because you have a ton of great resources as well as groups, you offer counseling for ministry leaders. You have, I believe you have events. And, I think I saw a pancake breakfast or something happening on your events calendar. So you've got a lot going on. So where can people go to learn more about you and your ministry and all of your, books? TheresStillHope.org . We offer a 90 day recovery program for guys that are struggling with sobriety, where I work one on one with them or my associate does. We also have ten groups. We have two groups just for pastors. We have a group just for doctors because we work with a lot of medical professionals. Yeah. And most of the groups are done by Zoom. We do have an in-person group here in Bradenton, Florida. My wife and I are starting a new couples group this week. My wife works with wounded spouses. She does a group for women as well as one on one coaching. Do a lot of speaking in churches, programs and churches and conferences and so encourage anyone that would love to talk to me. I'd love to to speak to you, to help you any way we can. Our website is TheresStillHope.org and my email is Mark@theresstillhope.org. So one last thing I would mention. We write a daily devotion called Recovery Minute. If anyone would like to receive that. It's very short. Devotion goes out every morning. Reach out to me at Mark at TheresStillHope.org and I would love to put you on that list. That's amazing. And we will put all the links in the show notes for our listeners that may be at the gym or driving and working on some of those positive habits. So we'll make sure those are all there for everybody to check out. Well, doctor Mark Dennison, this has been a joy to have you back on the podcast. Thank you for this new book. I think it's going to be really inspirational for a lot of people who kind of are on the road to recovery and have been there for a while, but need that encouragement, need some of that wisdom that you provide in the book. So we'll be sure to point our listeners that way to check out that resource. And we do hope to have you back again soon. So thanks so much for joining us. I look forward to that. Karen. Thank you as always. So appreciate the work that you do. At Covenant Eyes. Oh, absolutely. Thank you. And to all of our listeners, thank you for tuning in to this episode of The Covenant Eyes Podcast. We hope you have a great day. God bless. Take care. We'll see you next time. Bye bye.