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Hey, everybody, welcome back to The Covenant Eyes Podcast. We're so glad to have you joining us. We've got another great episode today, and today's episode is really going to be focused on a ministry that is really serving the church and serving them well, and has a heart to help the church address sexual brokenness that we are experiencing all across this country. So today's guest, we have Paul Klassen. Did I get that right? Yeah, you did awesome. Awesome. We've got Paul joining us today. He has got an amazing ministry called Broken Strength | A Path to Purity. And Paul, would you mind just telling our listeners a little bit about the origin story of the ministry and just a little bit about yourself as well? Yeah, yeah. Thanks, Karen. Love, love being a part of this. This was really part of my weekly, rhythm is a Covenant Eyes podcast, and, Yeah, it's a privilege to join you. I, I'm, I've been married for 34.5 years, to Becky, and, we have six children for adult kids and and to, to still at home with us. I've been a pastor, for 13 years. And in the midst of that, had a mentor, who started this ministry, actually started broken strength. Joel Smith started it with a group of volunteers, a number of years ago. And, eventually he's like, I need someone to take over for me. And he knew my story. I have a I have a redemption story, Becky and I do. And, and he said. And I said, hey, how about me? And he he's like, well, I didn't think about you, but I don't want to call pastors out of their church. I want I want the Lord to do that. I don't want to be the one who initiates that. So anyway, that kind of led to this. And, so it's been almost two years now, that I've been doing this and pastored, like I said, for about 12 years before that and was a youth pastor before that, even, and so the genesis of this really is, is, is a heart for the local church. And, and John particular seeing with his number of years working with church leaders, that this was an issue that just kept, kept coming up over and over. And he's like, we we got to address this in a very direct and compassionate way, and really help the church kind of hold their hands in that process. And, and so that's his heart and that's, that's our heart. Becky and I both, we didn't really become public about our story until about 20 years into into us talking about it after my personal 20 year secret struggle. So it's been quite a long while in the making. And then when we decided to be more public, this the Lord just kind of led us to this, and and it's a privilege. Becky's, a partner in ministry, as she has been for years. That's awesome. And I love how God is using your brokenness and your story, to really lift up this ministry and then be able to reach into the church and help ministers and lay leaders really address an issue that, frankly, is one of the top issues. I think our churches are struggling with today. So it's beautiful how that worked out. So talk to us a little bit about the work that you're doing because I think, oftentimes, you know, we talk to pastors and ministry leaders all the time at Covenant Eyes, and it definitely is a top concern. You know, sexual brokenness, pornography use is becoming an epidemic among Christians. I mean, the stats tell us that seven over 70% of men, Christian men and 44% of Christian women are struggling now. So this is really a big issue. So talk to us a little bit about the the work that you're doing with churches specifically and how you guys are supporting them, because you have kind of an approach that you take to help local churches to correct. Yeah, we do, we do. It's it's churches aren't all over the board as far as where they're at with this. So we, we start with kind of, well, relationship. I mean, we have, we're very much networked, within our community. I'm in I'm based in Minnesota. I youth pastored in Arizona. So I have some churches there. Joe still has contacts around the country and different, association of churches. So it's mainly word of mouth. I mean, our only web presence is our website, and that's somewhat purposeful, that we just want to draw people to that and make word of mouth and, our main way of doing it and, and, and so the way we, the way we address it is, again, we, we fit it to the church, how we ask them, how do you address this? How often have you address this from the pulpit? A question we often ask is, the average attender to your church, would they say that that you guys care about porn addiction? Would they say that you guys talk about it and are willing to address it? Most churches would say, I don't think our average attender would even know that we think about it. And so we kind of start with that. Some churches have groups that are maybe even in the bulletin listed or, they have peer desire groups or something. And, but there's not a whole lot of people, you know, there's maybe in a large church, there's maybe 11 guys in the group. And I asked them, how many guys do you think's wrong with this? And, and obviously a lot more than 11 guys in a large church struggle with it. And so we help populate, if you will, those groups that are already going and we do this through, through an event, that is in person, and that is includes, testimonies, Lord willing, testimonies from the church, from guys that they already know or even especially leaders, that that's even better. If they don't and we say we provide a testimony, we get we have plenty of guys who are willing to travel and willing to say, yeah, I'll come in and give my story, but preferably a testimony from within. And then, either Joe or I present, like a 30 minute, you know, talk on the biblical. You know, we don't have to talk about the biblical view of sex, necessarily. Obviously, that's our foundation. But we more talk about our culture and, where we're at in our culture. Just a really sober picture of it and then a sober picture of the fact that they're not alone. That's our main, our main focus. You're not alone. And we say why you're not alone. You don't have to fight alone. You alone are not the only one affected by this. And so just really taking our time around a meal, around tables. So table discussions is where we end our time and we train up local, like the church, some church people to lead those conversation at the table. And then eventually we call them to a 3 or 4 week follow up through the book Finally Free, by Heath Lambert. That's kind of our our go to a resource that, churches just love you just does a great job of starting with grace, and just talking through just the basics of and challenging men to, to to do this with one another, in fellowship. What true confession is all those basic biblical principles with a counselor at heart. Really? Heath House? So, that's kind of what we do. And then we maintain contact with the churches, after that and, and, and help them along the way. And I guess one final piece, Karen, is, is our prayer is that a church champion would rise up in each of these churches. That it's usually a lay leader is our goal. Would say, hey, this is my passion. I want this to be my ministry. And so there are kind of our contact points out, that church that the pastor doesn't have to always be thinking about this, that, that he has kind of his go to, to update the elders, to, be a person that can help others through this process. I love that, and that approach really works. Well, we've seen that time and time again where having a speaker come in often kind of it removes some of the pressure from the the local ministry leaders where, you know, it might be an uncomfortable or a new topic. But when you bring in an expert, right, you bring in someone that's got testimonies to share and a story to share it really, you kind of de-escalate the room a little bit and it opens people up, and then you're able to educate and empower. So I love that model. And I love the shared meal as well. I think after you go through a tough topic like that, where you really kind of let people know, like the lay of the land, the landscape, the culture, you're not alone. It's nice to kind of break into smaller groups and, and just kind of engage with one another and reassure one another that you are a band of brothers or sisters in this together. So I love that. I love that approach that you guys have. So, you know, going back to your own story and just kind of how it inspired you to get involved in this ministry. I mean, you had been in youth ministry, you had been a senior pastor. So obviously during that time, was the struggle happening for you while you were in ministry? And kind of what was that breaking point that led you personally to seek freedom? And what what role did your faith play in all of that? Yeah, yeah. Oh, man, that's such a great question. I was revealed to pornography at the age of 12. Which talking to numerous guys, it's amazing how. Well, I mean, we know the stats, you know, anywhere from 8 to 13, but 12 years old. It's just amazing how that age just kind of keeps coming up. And, you know, it just really gives us a heart for our junior high leaders, right? In our churches and, parents with junior high kids, girls and boys. You know, the school bus is, is a big way that people are revealed to it. In fact, school school devices, unfortunately, they have protections, but they that's a lot of times where kids first view it. And so mine was a bus, older kid just dropped this magazine in my lap. And, for the next 20 years, I just nobody knew. And, and I didn't tell anybody, and it went from just lustful thinking to fantasy life until it got to the point where I was calling chat lines, and phone sex and, obviously covering up the first ten years of my marriage. The first three years, timing wise, of of ministry. I was a junior high pastor, actually, and loved it. And, and, you know, didn't have any issues with youth per se, but I had this, this, this thought life that was out of control. And so, no, I, I did not decide to come forward. I had decided, in fact, Karen, that I was going to take this to my grave because I felt I had enough under control, you know, so by God's sovereignty, my wife, Becky, found a charge on our phone, and she almost argued with the person on the other line saying, this is not our charge from our house. She's like, this didn't happen. This is a mistake. And the person kept saying, no, it came from your house. And then all of a sudden it clicked with my wife. She's like, well, I guess it could have. She never even dreamed that anything like that could ever be happening. So that night, she confronted me and I for the first time, Karen, in 20 years. I actually told another human being about what's going on. Wow. Obviously I didn't tell her everything, but I told her a lot, and I, this this dump truck load of crap, basically, I just laid on my wife that she had no idea existed. So, you know, God's. You talk about my faith and, my convictions. I knew of God's love. I knew of his grave, thought about it, received him as my savior at a young age. But it wasn't until. Becky, we don't know how long it was between confession and forgiveness. Becky nor I. Was it a day was the three weeks. I don't know, it was. It was a horrible time in our marriage. But yeah. A beautiful time. Because by the time she got to the point, she sat me down and looked me in the face and told me exactly what I had done to her, how it made her feel. And, And she said, I forgive you. Yeah. The first time that really forgiveness had a face for me, if that makes sense. Yeah. Again, I knew of God's forgiveness, but that journey to the heart, where I really, it really captured me, was when my wife actually did. Because I, I was ready for anything. I was we never talked about divorce. We knew that was off the table. But separation, sleep in another room, whatever I was, yeah, I would have understood anything. So that's really where it hit me. And then that was in the year 2000, also the same year that our first son was born. And, God's like, you know what, Paul, if you're not going to come forward, you need to get things straight. If you're going to be leading your children and your son in particular. We've had two girls already and now boy and, and, so, I would say prayer for me, my, my mom was praying for me from the day I was born. She didn't know the fruit of that. But the fact that God brought this recovery start on and not me is a testament to God's sovereignty and patience and love for me. And so that was a kind of the start of it for me, but then not until 20 years later, after that, that Becky and I actually feel like we could be sharing this more publicly. And so and so that kind of is a foundation for my passion to, to get guys on the front end of this. Right? Hey, guys, we've been, 16 years and old. Older is what we tell our churches. Any guys 16 years and older are ready for this event. And, and so we have tables full of 16 year olds with their youth pastor or youth leader going through this together. And, it just thrills me to know that they're talking about this. Whereas me and youth group back in the late 80s. Right. It ain't happening. You know, we're not right. We're joking about it. We're not talking seriously about it. So yeah. And it's so important too, because I mean, like you mentioned earlier, you were exposed at 12 and we know of kids as young as eight, some even younger than that, that are being exposed to this graphic violent pornography. And it shapes their worldview, it shapes them. They interact with women going forward. It certainly is impactful. So for, you know, ministry leaders and for parents specifically, like, we've got to engage our children because unfortunately, there's not a good solution to keep your kids insulated because even with the best protections, even with Covenant Eyes installed, even with router protection, your children, if they're going to school like you were on the bus and exposed. I mean, nowadays on the bus, every child has a smartphone. And that is one of the most common areas for children to be exposed. So I love that you guys really, set up, you know, youth ministry leaders as well as these teenagers and parents and men and women really well, to get them to engage in this topic. And I thought you also mentioned a really good point. So one of the things that we've encountered was, you know, one of the setbacks for pastors and ministry leaders in addressing this is oftentimes they may be struggling themselves with their own set of issues. And so often when we are struggling with sin, we don't feel qualified. We don't want to talk about that secret sin and help others because we're struggling ourselves. Do you guys see any of that in the work that you're doing in the church as well? Well, we we see it a little bit because, we do provide pathways for pastors and church leaders to reach out. We see it more so in that, in the unspoken, churches that just do not get back to us, churches that don't pursue this, that say we're not ready. You know, obviously I'm making a lot of assumptions here, but it's assumptions based on a certain amount of history and knowledge and research. And so, what we've seen, like a particular pastor that I'm working with now, you know, he had never told anybody until about a year or two ago. And we started having discussions, and he's gaining freedom and, and and, you know, two years ago, he would have said, we're not even close to talking about this because I'm not ready. Well, it didn't take too long for him to say, you know what? We're ready to talk about it. Not because I have this solved in my mind or in my heart, or even in my habits yet, but because I, because I, I know that our men need to talk about it, and I don't have to share my whole testimony or even part of my testimony for our men. But I need at least I know the importance of it, and I can share with them that it is important. And so just starting the conversation with the pastor, you know, Joe, Joe would have a question. My predecessor and a good question that he would ask pastors because he'd meet with lots of pastors. One on one is, so tell me some. Tell me about a, your your viewing habits on your device. You know, just pretty simple question, right? It doesn't take too long from that question. And to see the the body language, when someone responds to the question to know what's going on there, is there even a little bit of guilt around what you're viewing on your device? And so, that's just one one way that we try to broach that topic and, and leave it up to the pastor, if you want to pursue this, we're a safe place. And so, yeah, I guess I think. Does that answer your question? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. No. It's good. Yeah. And I mean, the Barna stats did some research on this, I think back in 2016. And I mean, 1 in 5 ministry leaders, you know, admitted to struggling in this area. It's not I mean it's not a unique thing. I mean we're all human. And the sin certainly can touch any one of us. So I think all that was really good. Let's talk a little bit about because you you work with a lot of men who definitely feel trapped in this sexual sin. So talk to me a little bit about some of the misconceptions that people carry into this struggle. And how does broken strength work to address that with the guys? Yeah, yeah. Well, there's there's lots of them because, so many of us do it alone for so long. We've fallen for so many different lies and believe them. But one that comes to mind is is one that I still battle. And that's that's the idea that this struggle, even the blatant acts of disobedience to God, it defines you as a person. So about identity, about shame. I think that's the biggest misconception that we believe. I know of God's love, as I mentioned earlier, of his forgiveness. But it really, I'm still working through that. I'm just realizing, even just recently, that God's love for me had an asterisk next to it. Yes, God loves me, but I have this thing. I'm different than everybody. He loves me differently than everybody else because of this. So I think the message, the misconception of guys that struggle with this is that they're stuck, that this is who they are. This is the zoo. They're always be this is a part of their DNA. When in fact, God made us this, sexual beings. That's part of our DNA. And, and he did that for a reason. For a good reason. And it could be redeemed. It can be healed. And, it's it's part of how he works in us and through us is through our weakness, through our brokenness. You know, broken strength, you know, comes from 2

Corinthians 12: 21:15

9-10, when Paul talks about his own, brokenness, his thorn in the flesh, which we don't know what it is for, probably a very good reason. He wants to communicate that that, in our weakness, that's where we're strong. And so if we can talk about and work through that and hear each other's weaknesses, how much stronger, how much more are we getting our strength from the Lord? So I guess that's one misconception, regarding men, in how they approach this. I love how, David puts it poetically. We have this on our on our bookmarks, we have these bookmarks we, we give away and

and, Psalm 103: 21:59

11-14. If I could just read this, and it's kind of a benchmark psalm for us. For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his steadfast love. His has said love toward those who fear him. As far as the East is from the West so far, does he remove our transgressions from us? Do we really believe that it's true, as the father shows compassion to his children? So the Lord shows compassion to those who fear him. And I love this. Verse 14 For he knows our frame. He remembers that we are dust. He knows how mortal we are. He knows how out we are. Just sing again. But yet he continues to forgive us over and over again. And, And so that's our identity. That's who we are. We're defined by his love. We're not defined by our sin. And it's easier said than done, for sure. But that's what we want to continue to break down. And that's why we need to continue to talk about it over and over and over again. Absolutely. Yeah. And I love that verse. Oh so good, so good. You know, pornography is one of those it's a sin that really thrives in that secrecy. And the shame element is really something that holds so many people back from confessing the sin and seeking help and restoration from that. So from your perspective, how can the church do better? I mean, obviously we've talked about some ways, you know, having a speaker come in and talking about the issue, but how can the church do better supporting individual men who are silently wrestling with this issue and maybe aren't ready to come forward? We've talked about a couple of ways. Are there other things that they can do to support men? And I would even say women, because we know that the statistics don't lie when it comes to women, too. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, our bandwidth right now as a ministry is really focused on men. My wife is, is, getting training, and she has a heart for women, women who've been betrayed. But also, even though she's never struggled, she's getting some training, you know, she recovery, is a great resource for that. And they're actually starting a new training certificate, there. And she's going to participate in that. And so it's definitely on our radar for sure. But as far as a church goes, well, what we try to talk about with them is, is how how is your church as far as the confessional community is concerned? How how trans parent are your leaders, your leaders of women, your leaders of men, your leaders of the church overall, how transparent are they? Not even necessarily about their sexuality, but, how, you know, example I get when I was a youth, when I was in high school, we were in a large church in the Phoenix area. And the pastor, great pastor, I mean, great communicator. And he did something very you probably think he thought it was very little, but it was very impactful for me as a teenager, as he, he gave an illustration. He said, I was at the grocery store with my wife and and, or. No, he said, someone came up to me in church and said, I saw you with your wife at the grocery store. And, you know, from the pulpit. He said, my first thought was, oh, no, what was I doing? Where are we arguing? What was I looking at? Another woman. What was I doing? And and just for him to saying that that's what he thought. Just really, brought it down to the earth. As far as leaders, pastors get put on pedestals way, way to, unfairly, if I could say that. But pastors, we oftentimes we do that to ourselves because we're not really, sharing things from up front. And so how are you as a church? Creating that atmosphere. And I think one key part in that is, how are you doing communion together? Are you doing it in such a way that that you're allowing space for confession, you're allowing space for really some and giving examples of what that looks like and what people do struggle with. That's a perfect time to do it, because that's why we have it, right. We it's a memorial of, of of Christ dying for our sins, even for those that we committed that morning. And and to confess that and to get cleansed from that sin. And and so that's a very practical way to do it. But then also to provide many opportunities, you know, within women's groups, within men's groups, at the youth group, for for leaders to model that transparency. And I think that's one of the biggest practical things they could do on a regular basis to keep that in front of people that, hey, we were all there. We're all together. I love that. I love that concept because I mean, really, you know, that's one of the the things I often have seen in, in churches where, you know, we we all go there, we kind of paint the good face on, you know, everything's fine. How how are you doing, Sister Karen? Oh, everything's great. You know, we don't really want to share all of the, the the deep, dark secrets. And obviously, you shouldn't share those with everybody that comes up to you and asks how you're doing. But we we also just put on these fronts. And so, you know, making your congregation a place where confession of sins, no matter how small or big, because at the end of the day, they're all thin against the the God that we serve. Right? And so having that kind of culture created, I think, is a beautiful way to really allow for people the space, whether it's pornography, you know what any whatever our, our sin of choice is, we can confess that regularly and take that seriously. I think that creating that culture is so impactful. I love that concept. Yeah. And even even though we are confessing regularly and you're also forgiven regularly. Yes. And that's communicated to right that yes, both am and and the less we confess, guess what. The less that that that forgiveness will take place. It's a it's a promise from Scripture. So the better we are. If you want to use that term, the better we are confessing, the better we are receiving forgiveness and understanding it. And I the local church is a great place for that to happen. Absolutely. And confessing to one another, you know, there's something powerful in that, like sharing that with someone else. There's an accountability to that as well, in the forgiveness also. So I love that. That's a great recommendation. So let's kind of go back to the journey that men's specifically, you know, as they go through recovery or even just the the beginning stages of recovery when they acknowledge that, you know, they have a brokenness, there's different stages to that. And what's the one thing that you wish pastors understood about ministering to someone in that brokenness? Because, you know, it's not always something that I think pastors are trained for. Some are, but some are not. They're not equipped and they don't know how to walk with men through this, this journey. So talk to us a little bit about that. Yeah. Yeah. It's not it's not it's not a class in seminary. Yeah I've heard that. Yes. Or or even. Yeah. Or even a topic in your pastors cluster that you get together with other pastors. Yeah. So yeah, this is another another great question. And I can tell you that, they interact with other people and with pastors who have done well on this and not so well. You know, if every pastor has an opportunity, to help someone, and indeed that Barna study the recent one, I think 75% of pastors said that they are currently helping someone. Right? Person. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it's safe to say that 100% of pastors will be helping someone at some point in their ministry. I think it's pretty safe to say, but if every one of them would be able to have actually have the compassion of Christ for them, and understand how much woundedness and insecurities are behind the struggle that they see on the surface, there's deep seeded lies that they've been convinced of, you know, kind of what we talked about already, misconceptions that we have as men. I mean, 20 years of secretly struggling, I'm still recovering from being defined by that is it's still a process. And so and so, for pastors to not look at the, the end product, not just to try to get them off of porn. Yes. That's important. And protections. And, you know, I'm a, I'm one of your, your lifelong members. When you guys offered that, I'm like, I'm all right, give it to me. I don't have to pay every month now, which is cool. And, so I totally love that. And that's needed, but also the and the and of of dive into that. Why are we broke and what is happen and to for pastors to build that compassion even in their own hearts. You think about Jesus and his compassion for the woman at the well, his compassion for the, anointing his feet and and, the woman anointing his feet is compassion for, you know, even Nicodemus, he saw beneath, the Pharisees stuff that Nicodemus was I mean, he he had compassion for all these people. And, if pastors could actually dive into them and know that there's so much underneath the surface stuff that's being confessed or that I got, or whatever, you know, by default we communicate to the church that sex is, is dirty. I think we communicate that mainly by putting that in the freight in the context of sexual immorality. How bad our culture is, you know, look how far away our culture has gotten. And so and so we by default talk about that. And so I guess the other thing would be to just how are we communicating the beauty of sex at the same point? Appropriate obviously, but but just as much, if not more of the other side of the, of the dirty side of it, which unfortunately, is most of what we see. As we know, pornography has become more and more violent and more and more, invasive to and, I mean, it's all not what God intended for sex to be. And, so we can get a lot of the beauty part of them, if I can use a a Larry Norman counselor from the 70s, you know, why should the devil have all the good music? You know, my question is, why should the devil be the only one to talk about sex? Exactly. That's my question. I mean, God invented it, so I. Can we be creative in in getting that out there? I love that that is encouraging. And it's it's so practical. I mean, really, it's like, God, you know, design sex. And so we as the church body need to own that space and not let the culture dictate what that looks like. To our children and to our families. Like we need to step in that. And pastors and ministry leaders have a wonderful opportunity to really be that, person to step in and do that. So that's encouraging. I love that talk to us a little bit. You know, we're coming to the end of today's episode, and I want to kind of offer some encouragement, whether it's a story that you've seen personally, a transformation you've witnessed, or maybe just some words of encouragement and hope that you can provide to those ministry leaders, pastors that are listening, or even just men that are tuning in for this episode as well. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You know, I well, like I said, I listen to a lot of podcasts like this and there's a lot of great ones and, and they all say the same thing when asked a similar question. And I just want to say it again, you're not alone. Right. I even just get emotional to sing those simple words because, because of how alone I felt for so long and, it cannot be said enough. And, there's many men that that are, there's so many ministries out there, there's churches that do want to help. And, I guess I guess more in particular the encouragement that that there are, there are people that are true that are getting healed or people who are putting those behind them, they're getting traction. I guess one encouraging thing for pastors, for churches is that you don't have to, you don't have to do this big thing. You know, an event may seem like a big word. But it's really quite simple in nature. If you just, get guys together. Here's how simple it works for a particular church. That all but all kind of give an encouragement example of, you know, they aren't very big, but another local person doing it do that. And because of our table discussion format, this allows for other churches to join churches and say, hey, we'll bring a group of guys, we'll bring our own table leader. So the pastor brought like five guys, five guys from his church. And, they had a great discussion there. One guy just just said out loud, I'm, I'm I feel hopeless. I mean, that's the first time he even shared his hopelessness around this. If you just saying old words finally to another two guys that at his church. And so since then this is actually a bilingual church. Finally free comes in in Spanish. And so they purchased the Spanish version. They have the English version. So this pastor meets every week, every other week with, the Hispanic group, every other week with the English speaking group. And he's discipling them like he's been doing for years. But he says now, Paul, there's not this elephant in the room. We can now bring this up. We have a context in which to do it. We know that we're not alone. And obviously there's still challenges to that, because when there's setback, when we've maybe fallen again, it takes that reminder that we need to keep talking about it. You're you're still not where you were. You may not be where you want to be, but you are. You are gaining for, understanding of forgiveness. You are processing this and, and so, perseverance, I guess, would be other word of encouragement. You're not alone. Persevere in this, because God is faithful. He he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But with the temptation, he will provide a way of escape. And so the perseverance says, oh, here's how I could have escaped, but I didn't. But next time I can't escape because I know God provided a way. And so learning from those things and talking through them, and maybe someone else seeing a way of escape that you didn't see. Right. Yes. Here's what you could have done. Right. Oh, yeah, I guess I could have texted you. I didn't think about that. So things like that. Just persevere in a don't give up. You're not alone. Find that guy. Find that person you trust. I think you know, part of that 80% of of of people. I think men and women, they feel alone. They don't feel like they have someone they can trust with this. If they if you feel like that's you, there's always somebody, you know, we have a getting help now tab under our resources on our website. And, and that gives you some places that you can go, gives you the five piece of pornography that will help you just initially attack this thing and, but find and pray for that person because they're there, whether you think it or not, there's people in your life that love you and care for you and will not, you know, they'll not put up their hand and say, don't talk about that. Absolutely. And the the power of, you know, doing this with other people, the community aspect is so essential to the recovery journey. Oh my goodness. Yeah. That couldn't have been said better. That was a beautiful way to bring today's episode to a close. I do want to make sure our listeners know how to connect with broken strength, the path to parity. So can you direct them to your website or your social media tags wherever they can find you, so that we can put those in the show notes as well? Yeah. Well, it's it's just the website. So apathtopurity.org is what it is. If, if actually if you just Google Broken Strength that'll come up because we've kind of we've reserved the term Brokn Strength as well. So yeah. You can connect with us through there. You can find where our events are. You can actually, click on a tab that says, I'd like to host an event, and, and we'll get back to you. And then, of course, there's the resources where you can get help. Now, links to other resources. We're actually an affiliate with Covenant Eyes. So if you want to get Covenant Eyes on your device, go through our thing and we'll get a little kickback. So we. Yeah. So those sorts of resources are there as well that we recommend. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. That's awesome. Well, for our listeners, I think that's a pretty simple but yet effective call to action. So, you know, if you're a ministry leader out there and you are looking for a way to start this conversation, this is a ministry that can help you do that. And so definitely check out those links, listeners in the show notes. And for the men out there listening, it sounds like there are tons of great resources for you to get connected with, or even find an event in your area where you can meet with other men that are on the journey and hopefully on the path to freedom with you. So that's awesome. Well Paul, it has been a delight having you on today. Thank you for your passion to serve the church. I think we need that and we we need all hands on deck here because this problem is not going away and we have got to, engage. We've got to get involved and we've got to start having better conversation. So thank you to your ministry. We pray that you guys continue to to reach out and connect with as many churches as possible so that we can really start a movement in the church on this topic. So thanks for joining us. Amen. Around. Yeah, yeah, we're in this together. So yeah. Absolutely. Press forward. Thank you. Absolutely. Well, listeners, thanks for tuning in to this episode of The Covenant Eyes Podcast. We'll see you next time. Take care. God bless.