Welcome back to The Covenant Eyes Podcast. It's Karen, I'm so glad to have you here today. We've got a great show and we have one of our favorite guests returning to do an interview. Today. We're going to talk about marriage. We're going to talk about pornography, impact on that and how we can work to strengthen our marriages, along with all sorts of other topics. Today's guest is Doctor Carol, an author, speaker, personal coach. She's a licensed OBGYN physician and an ordained Doctor of ministry. Many people struggle to find help that they need in the church, and Doctor Carol really takes this to heart. She has worked tirelessly to support and to help people with broken relationships, issues around sex and sexuality, mental emotional problems, and toxic religion. So we are just really excited to dive into a conversation with Doctor Carol today. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm thrilled. Karen, I love Covenant Eyes. I love all that you do. And it's great to be talking with you here. Awesome. Well, I know the last time we had you on, you know, we talked a little bit about we had our new, program arise coming out for women. So that has gone exceptionally well. And women all across the country and even across the globe are really finding some freedom there. But today's conversation, we're going to actually kind of focus in on marriages. And, you know, one of the things that we hear quite frequently at Covenant Eyes, as bad as a couple, is journey journeying through pornography addiction. And really going through that. They really struggle with how to rebuild their relationships, post, discovery of pornography in the relationship. So I want to talk to you a little bit about, from your experience, some of the ways that you've been able to help and coach people through broken relationships that came from pornography or other sexual addictions. Yeah, it is a big deal. And because of how common struggles with pornography are for both men and women, it impacts an awful lot of marriages. I think one of the biggest things I hear from people in a marriage where this is a factor, is the sense of betrayal they have that the spouse who discovers that their spouse has been using pornography feels like they have been lied to, and that they have been betrayed, like the, the just the fidelity that they were expecting they haven't had. And they'll the trust is lost. That might be another really important way to say it. When trust is broken, it's a rupture in the relationship. And neurobiology and social sciences tell us a lot about rupture, but they also tell us a lot about repair. And from a Christian perspective, I think we can look at the whole story of redemption as rupture and repair and relationships. So this is right up God's alley. It's something that those of us who follow Jesus have tremendous resources to bring to bear on. First of all, finding healing for individual heart and then repair in the relationship between people when that trust has been broken. I would also say that for the person who has been using porn and has been trying to hide it, it's often not out of malice. But because they don't want to hurt their spouse, they want to protect their spouse from feeling bad and feeling pain, which frequently they do. And I just want to say to both, husbands and wives, regardless of who is or has or is struggling with this, honesty is kind. Truth is kind. Now you can give truth in an unkind way, but it is far kinder to be honest and work through the implications of that than to stay in the closet and keep things hidden. That's such a foundational thing that I think it's important to start with. Absolutely. And I think you've got, book, Sexpectations, if I got that right. You have a book that kind of talks through, you know, freedom from wounds and mistakes and healing. And I think you have a video course now that goes with that. Yes. Is that a resource that can help people who are on a journey to try to find some healing for their marriage or for themselves, and then their marriage next? Yes. This particular resource, the book and the digital video course expectations, is particularly about starting with a person's own heart, whether they are the one who approaches this from being wounded or they are the one approaching this from struggling with bad behaviors, addictions, whatever around sexuality. What the book and the digital course do is help a person look at their story with honesty and compassion, just like Jesus does what brought them to where they are, and bring Jesus right into the middle of their story, and then find healing and develop the the capacity for intimacy for those who are married. Obviously, the first place, humanly speaking, to approach that is with your spouse. And when your heart has received a measure of healing, whether you're the offender or the offended. And I even hate using those terms because we've all hurt people and we've all been hurt. But wherever you fall in this, as you develop measure of healing in your own heart, then you become much more capable of intimacy. If you're married with your spouse, which is which is what we're talking about today. And of course, you know, the pornography distortions in your brain impact what you think of when you think of intimacy with your spouse. But intimacy is much more than sex. And so we have to look at the broader picture, not only sexual activity with my spouse, but the mind and heart and soul taking the coverings off all of you. You can't experience intimacy just by taking the coverings off your body, your clothes off. The coverings also come off your heart and mind and soul. If you're a true to experience intimacy, and that can be a challenging journey. When pornography has been a factor in a marriage. Absolutely. That is so true. And, you know, as we're thinking about married couples walking through this, this healing journey together, you know, one of the things that I think is really important is that both parties have support systems built around them, that, you know, the spouse that's been wounded as well as the person that's struggling with sex addiction or pornography addiction. What what kind of, advice or, recommendations do you have for people as they're on this journey, as far as who to surround themselves with, how to be tapped into some sort of community support? The number one thing is find a friend. If you don't have a group around, you start with one. I know that with many of the Covenant Ties programs, there's that there's the capability of connecting with other people online, and that can be a good place to start, whether it's that, whether it's somebody at church, whether it's somebody at your workplace or that, you know, start with just one. Ideally, your goal is to find three to 5 or 6 people that you know them and they know you. You're up in each other's business. You ask the hard questions. Accountability is a key part of that. It doesn't stop there. But you do need somebody to know what's going on with you and to challenge you to be up in your business, and also to encourage you to pray with you, to support you when you are feeling hopeless, struggling again, and you and you feel like you, you know, you messed up, am I ever going to get out of this? Or, there's no way I can ever be close to my spouse again because they've wounded me so much. Whatever it is, you need somebody to hear you to be as Christ to you, a human body with eyes and skin and. And that you can talk with, ideally, that you can feel and be in person with that that's best. And then a little broader. A few people in the body of Christ, that that is the single hardest thing that I find people struggle with when they are walking this journey. Whichever part of the, the equation they personally are, to find a few people to be honest with feels such an enormous mountain to climb. And so what I encourage is whether it's through, you know, the covenant resources or something else, prayerfully consider and then, I suggest just write down on a piece of paper the 1 or 2 or half a dozen people who might be possible, and then reach out to the first one and just say, can we chat? Okay. And then if you've never done this before, you can start by saying, you know, God is stretching me. There's stuff he's dealing with me about, and he's encouraging me to connect with someone and people. I'm wondering, might you be one of my people? Could I tell you something? And if they say yes, okay, you've got to start and just start there. I will tell whoever is listening or watching. It's very likely that the person you approach will say, oh really? Me too. That's not a guarantee, but it's likely in our world it's likely they are struggling too. And so just take that step and start. Absolutely. And, you know, pornography use is something that, you know, there's so much shame involved in it that people push it down and they isolate and they hide. And so coming, you know, forward and seeking that help in that community and finding your band of brothers or band, the sisters. It's hard, right? Because pornography teaches us to be isolated and to just, you know, stay in secret and to keep this hidden. So then is a really hard step for a lot of people to take. And I think you offered some really good practical ways that they can do that. And sometimes we have to we just have to step out in faith with people as well. What are your recommendations, though, like when we're looking for those people that can be trusted in our lives? Like is there a criteria or is there something we should look for in those people? Because obviously we can't trust everybody and not everybody is going to be beneficial and helpful. And when we're just coming forward, we want to make sure that we have someone that safe that we can trust. So do you have any recommendations of, like, how to weed out people that maybe aren't the right fit to be in your inner circle as you're going through this great question. And many people have been wounded in relationship, and maybe you've tried to find somebody for your inner circle and have been wounded in that very quest already. So a couple things that I would say, look for somebody who, from everything you see and experience with them, are able to be present for others, that their world is not just about themself, that they demonstrate they see the other person, maybe it's not that they have seen you, but you notice that they are able to be present to somebody else rather than making everything about them. Ideally, you might have observed them for a little while and seen that they are serious about their own walk with Jesus, that they are allowing him to change them. Yeah. That can be really, really key. And when you first approach them and just in whether you start by asking to share about your porn use or not, just your initial interactions with them, you want to get the sense that they are not there primarily to fix you. What you are looking for is somebody to be present with you, like Jesus was. Yeah, yeah. That doesn't mean that if you are in a bad place, you stay there or that that person, wants you to stay there. But you're not looking for somebody to fix you. You're not looking for somebody to be junior Holy Spirit. And so just in the way they carry themselves, the way they talk, if if somebody is spouting Bible verses, every other sentence, it's probably not somebody who's able to be with you. That doesn't mean that the Bible is not a key part of our life with God and our transformation journey, but you want somebody who demonstrates the capacity to see that life is more than fact, that it's it's a journey and and is able to to be present. I think that's probably one of the most important things to look for. That's really good. And it's so hard nowadays to, to find people that can be present, because we live in such a strange world where everything is so instant gratification and we're always online. And, you know, most of our friendships and communications are done on our cell phones and, you know, social media platforms. And so it definitely takes a little bit of effort and work. But there are people out there. Do you think the local church is a great place to find people? I mean, obviously being connected to the body of Christ in a local church body is going to be a great place to start as you're looking for people to build your kind of accountability circle. It should be the ideal place. I can guarantee to anybody who's watching that there are other people in your church who are struggling with porn. I can guarantee that. Men and women. Yeah. There are some churches, however, that are much more friendly to people who are walking a journal of struggle, whether it's porn or something else than others. So if your church is one where, people are finding joy and freedom in Christ in general, then it's very likely that there will be people in that church who can hear your story. And the present with you. So it's an important place to look. I did, have an experience very, very recently with a lady who is walking through her journey of brokenness and her church comes across, and even in her case, sadly, the pastor that she has spoke with, well, you just need to try harder. You just need to buck up and and do it. That is not a helpful message. And so there may be times when your particular experience of the body of Christ may not be the safest place. I say that with grief, with sadness, but in the broader sense, absolutely. So if your personal congregation doesn't seem like it might be, a safe place, it it is okay to prayerfully, you know, look for some other. I wish I didn't have to say that because the body of Christ should be the best and safest place to find healing and transformation and support. For sure. Yeah, but unfortunately, the church is filled with humans, right? And we are very flawed and sinful. And so unfortunately, that is the case. But I think a majority of churches, you know, they do their best. But you're right, there are circumstances and we've heard those stories as well where there's actually been church hurt. You know, you you try to get help and healing in that place and, you know, there's betrayal or trust is broken or just not good advice, like you just mentioned in that story. And that's harmful. And it's not helpful at all in the journey. Well, let me ask you a fun I'm going to kind of pivot a little bit. So you're a licensed OBGYN physician and. How. How did you get tapped into working with people who are struggling with their relationships or sex and sexuality, mental emotional problems? How did you get tapped into wanting to do that type of work as well? Because it seems like it it's totally different worlds. But, you know, at the end of the day, it's probably very much connected. But I'd love to hear from you about that. I often think God must chuckle when he's he sees me. And and considering my story, the OBGYN world and the world of ministry and work that I'm doing today are not as separate as, you might think because as an OBGYN, I was privileged to work with women and with couples in some of the most intimate aspects of their bodies and their lives and their relationships. I would hear things I will remember a woman who was in her 40s and, she came in just just for a simple examination. But you could tell she was, you know, she she was having struggles. And we talked for a couple of minutes and she said, my husband hasn't touched me in years. Now, I don't know, in her case, if that was because he was watching porn or not, but just those kinds of tender moments. Right? It was about ten years into my medical practice when God just kind of jerked me up and pointed me in a direction of getting ministry training. I realized, you know by then that I couldn't heal anybody. You know, the Great Physician, Jesus is the Healer, and medicine can often and often is a ministry. But he had something unique for me to do. So I went and also got my theology and Doctor ministry training. And then, when my husband and I were married and doing a radio program, the segment of our weekly show that seemed to get the most response was about relationships. And we started talking about the things in our marriage. And, you know, the things that we had learned and just being helped to people would call in. And that seemed to get the most response when I started writing, it seemed like the things I would write about relationships got the most response. And, it was a few years ago, I just wrote a couple articles about sex between husbands and wives, and when it wasn't good, when it when it wasn't working well, and the just huge response to that compared to, you know, the other things. And so just started narrowing in on that and following where God was leading. And that has now become a real focal point. I believe that in a large measure, that is because the whole area of intimacy and sex, they're related, but they're not the same. But that whole area gets so deep in our hearts and God cares about the heart. It's much more than behaviors. I know you, a covenant is such a huge focus because it's a big thing, and culture is about porn and God cares about that. But if there's anything God cares about more, it's what is going on in the heart, one level deeper. And that is where I feel God has really just put his finger on me and called me to speak into that particular area. And I see the kind of response from people that is just it's both sobering and sad and very gratifying as people find healing and wholeness. Absolutely. That's amazing. And it's amazing how God directs our journey in such unique ways. But, you know, that's great. Well, I mean, it's not a far stretch either. I mean, 56 and this number is actually like a decade old, but 56% of marriages fall apart because of someone's pornography use. And that was the number from a long time ago. So we know that pornography is certainly impacting relationships and intimacy. And there's just so much packed into that. So I just I think it's great how God has really led you on this journey. And I think there is a lot of crossover, from the work that you were doing as an OBGYN into now helping people with relationship and sex and sexuality and all the questions that surround that. So I love that. Well, let's talk a little bit about, your work specifically and like what your ministry really has to offer for our listeners. If they're looking for help because you're kind of the relationship expert, you have a ton of resources to help people. And I think if you look around society, I think everybody would probably agree that relationship problems are a top concern. And, you know, a lot of that's fueled from pornography or from just brokenness and just all sorts of hurts and hangups. But relationships need help in America, right? So talk to us a little bit about your ministry and what you do to help people. I don't know that there is any area of life that has a bigger impact on our sense of well-being than the quality of our closest personal relationships. If you're married, obviously that's your spouse. If you want to be married, it's looking for a spouse. If you're unhappily single, then you know how just the the the struggles there. I'm. I'm single again since my husband passed away. So, I've experienced both that, in our case, happy marriage and also singleness and dealing with relationships, is so key. And I think God cares about that deeply. So as far as our ministry, yeah, there's a lot of free online resources that we make available. A couple blog articles a week, about half of those have to do with marriage directly. The other half have to do with may or may not be marriage directly, but intimacy and the heart and intimacy with God. DrCarolMinistries.com is where you can find that hub of of all such things. We have a weekly podcast that we call relation ship prescriptions. And it's intimacy, whether it's in marriage or the need for single people to deal with their need for intimacy. How do you do that if you're not married? The difference between sex and intimacy and intimacy with God, and we address all of those things, those are frequent topics on the on our relationship Prescriptions podcast. And then you mentioned our expectations, portion, which is a big part of what we do, the book expectations. And then the digital course, you can find that at your expectations.com. Be sure and put the your there. Because if you just search for expectations you're going to go somewhere you don't want to go. So your sex dictations and then yeah. Karen, thank you for asking about this because we just in the last year in our ministry have been doing live in-person, intensive retreats and that has, like, opened up a whole new world that is more powerful than anything. Yet there's something that happens when a small group of people are present in a safe place to deal with the things that maybe they haven't spoken before, both the things that may have been done to them, and the things that they may have done in response, where they've been wounded, where to find healing, experience Jesus coming into the middle of their story. And that is something relatively new, that is just a beautiful and life transforming aspect. And that's where we're putting a lot of our energy right now. So all such things DrCarolMinistries.com. I love that, and I love that you're doing these in-person intensives, because I think in a world where we're so connected, quote unquote, online, we're so disconnected and we need to get together in safe places and really walk through that. That's beautiful. So this is a new thing that you're doing. How do people is about these, intensives on your website? And they can find out more about that, because that certainly will be appealing to our audience. Yeah. We are getting information up. The reason we haven't made that front and center on our website is because all the events we've had to date have been full with just word of mouth. But here's what. I would tell your listeners. We are expanding. God is doing some beautiful things in the ministry. We're expanding so we can do this more, and we're going to be having information front and center soon. But if you are listening and you want to come to one of these in-person events, use the contact page and just say, send me information about your events and I will respond. I'm the one who addresses those contact page questions personally, so just go to DrCarolMinistries.com, the contact page, send me a question and I'll respond and get you all those details. That's awesome. All right. Well we'll be sure to put links in the show notes. So Doctor Carol, for our final topic today, I just want to dive into the church because I know, you know, with your background, you certainly have a heart for the church and for God's people, but the church is kind of missing the boat a little bit sometimes when it comes to addressing sexual brokenness and pornography. You know, I see a lot of churches doing the best they can. But really, at the end of the day, we need to be doing so much more. So I want to talk a little bit about how we can get churches more engaged and help them do a better job of making the church a safe place to learn about these things, because otherwise people are going online and, you know, learning about this stuff and places we don't want them to. And then there's our children who are learning because of social media and being attacked. So let's talk a little bit about the church. What are your thoughts on like how the church is doing with these topics and how they can maybe do a little better and what we can do to help them? Yeah. Well, I just got to give a shout out to Sam Black there at Covenant Eyes. His book that that's, you know, a big focus of his work. He's been on our podcast and just love the work that you guys are doing there. But I agree with you completely. The majority of churches are doing the best they can in many ways. And it's it's not it's not cutting it. One of the biggest things that my heart feels about, where the lack is in church is the focus on behavior that it's all about do's and don'ts, behaviors have consequences. If you are exposed to porn as a child, the message is your brain is going to see and picture are going to mess you up. If you are addicted to porn, it's going to mess up your marriage and it may or may not survive. Behaviors have consequences, and if all we do is tell people don't do this, do this, they're trying harder. They're full of shame, they fail and it doesn't work. I believe that the message that people need to hear in church is these behaviors have consequences. But let's help you. This is not about just trying harder. This is about creating bands of sisters, bands of brothers, ideally under the banner of King Jesus. That's right. Where we can walk together experiencing his transformation. I think that needs to include stories from the front. I think it needs to include stories in kids church, in youth group, not only about the bad stuff, but about people who have experienced measures of healing. They're not done yet. Are any of us done? But you're sharing stories about how Jesus can come in and change your life, specifically about sexual brokenness. I think that is such a big factor. So making the point of it's more than just trying harder. How do we walk with people to let Jesus deeper into the levels of their heart and address the needs that nobody wakes up one day and says, I'm going to be addicted to porn? Something happens. It solves a problem. We need to help people find solutions to those problems that they are going to porn and other illegitimate behaviors for solving the problem in the sense of a quick fix like junk food, empty calories, and it only kills them faster. But that need for intimacy, the need for connection, the need for understanding about our bodies and sexuality and relationships. So having conversations right from, you know, kids, church all the way through, it needs to be just normal to talk about these things in the body of Christ. I, I waxed a little, hot there for a second because it is an important thing, and you can see I care about it. Yeah, absolutely. No, I love it. Well, and it's funny because the Bible does not shy away from sharing the stories of. Your. Sexual brokenness. You know, people throughout the Bible, we see that all throughout. And, you know, it's weird that we don't embrace sharing the testimonies and the things that God has done for each of us more frequently in church, because those testimonies can be transformational to someone else who's listening to that story. I know when I read the Bible and I hear about the brokenness of David and the things that he did and how much he loved God, you know, and how much his heart was after God, but yet a flawed, sinful man. He was with sexual brokenness all over. I mean, there are just so many things that can be applied, and I just feel like you're right. We need to talk about this from the front. It needs to be embraced in youth groups. So I'm excited that you have a passion to really help our churches, you know, get invigorated around this. Just one quick thing. You mentioned the Bible. There's a lot of bad sex in the Bible. You know, I mean, it's it's it's X-rated, you know, I mean, and it's really, really bad. And the good stuff is also there, the Song of Solomon, right in the center of the Bible, unadulterated goodness. And so you can see the whole picture. That's part of what we as followers of Jesus need to be talking about. Absolutely. Yeah. And the Bible doesn't shy away. So why should we write? I love that. Well, Doctor Carol, as we bring today's episode to a close, I just want to leave our listeners with kind of a message of hope and encouragement. So do you have something on your heart that you would love to share with our listeners? And, you know, just give them some encouragement in their journey, whatever side of the equation they're on. Regardless of which side of the equation you're on or what your brand of sexual brokenness is, what Jesus would say is just come, if you feel addict and ashamed and overwhelmed and hopeless that you can never just come. If you feel lonely and betrayed and isolated and wounded, you may not feel like you can even take another breath. It hurts so deep. Just come whatever it is for you, whether it's porn or something else. Just come. There is nothing that you have experienced. Nothing that's been done to you. Nothing that you have done that could make Jesus love you any less. And one of the first things I believe Jesus would say is find a friend. Let's do this together. Covenant ties can be a resource. The body of Christ. We talk about it. Ask, pray. Ask somebody to come alongside you. That's hard. But do it anyway. There is hope. There are too many stories out there of people who have been. I'm going to say it worse than you, who were found healing and hope and restoration. If you need to borrow faith from some of the rest of us for a bit, do that. It can. You can find it too. Oh that's great, I love that. Well, that is an excellent way to close today's episode, and I want to encourage all of our listeners to check out Doctor Carol's website. You will find links to all the different resources we talked about today. And then don't forget, if you want more information on her intensives to fill out the Contact Her button on her website and she will get you all the information about those programs. Doctor Carol, it is always a joy to have you on. You bring so much energy and passion for helping people and we just really appreciate it. So thanks for joining us today. It's been an honor and a pleasure. Great to talk with you, Karen, and many blessings to you and Covenant Eyes. Well, thanks so much and to our listeners, thanks for tuning in to this episode of The Covenant Eyes Podcast. We'll see you next time. God bless. Take care.