Everybody, welcome back to The Covenant Eyes Podcast. It's so good to be with you all today. I have got an amazing host joining us for the first time on The Covenant Eyes Podcast. I have Heidi Cooper, our very own Covenant Eyes recovery specialist, who is a reverend, pastoral sex addiction professional. She has an MA in pastoral counseling specializing in addiction recovery, and she is part of the Covenant Eyes family. We wanted to bring her on the show to, kind of be our expert in the wings here. So, Heidi, thanks for joining us today. Thank you for having me. I'm excited. Yeah. Would you like to introduce, another amazing woman that we have joining us today for the episode? Sure. This is Ashley Jameson from Pure Desire, who oversees all of the women's side of Pierce ministries. And I've known Ashley for, gosh, I don't know, at least about ten years. And, having led groups myself with Pure Desire a while ago. And so, yeah, Ashley, we're just really excited to have you here. It's good to see your face again. And, we're excited for. Yeah, what you have to share with us this today. I am excited to be here, too. I love just jumping on here and, you know, not having a big agenda, just getting to connect again with, our sisters who are doing the same work and banding together. So happy to be here, Ashley. For those who are not familiar with, some of the things that you're doing at Pure Desire, which most people should be, I obviously following the work that you're doing, which is amazing stuff. Can you share a little bit about what you do specifically with Pure Desire? And I believe you've rolled out some new things that peer desire specifically for the women out there. Yeah. We have like Heidi said, I oversee the women's groups and and so my role has been partnering with the church or with people who want to start groups. We also help the individuals who come to us. My story was being a wife who needed a group and there was none around. And so I just started it. And so I have a passion to make sure that women are not out there just floundering for help. And we're doing such a good job of providing information through podcasts and online. But what I appreciate about peer Desire is we package things so it's easy for people to come and just start plugging in or use the material. Our newest offerings, recently would be Authentically You. It's a 20 week workbook for single women. And so it's managing love, sex and relationships for for single women. And, we have our unraveled for that. It's a little heftier. It's 36 weeks, I think. Don't quote me. And the stories, might be geared toward people who are married. And so we, we just created something a little smaller, shorter. It would easily fit into a college curriculum, a school, a school year if if students wanted to follow that and then, we're coming up on our one year anniversary. So close. Heather and I, our lady at Pure Desire that our brain teaching. We co-host a podcast

Real Talk About Sex and Love. And they're just short 15, 20 minute, bite sized, bite sized episodes. And we answer three questions that come in from listeners. So all of our questions, all of our content is, material and questions that people send us. Yeah, I've actually seen, the podcast, it's it's great, a great resource. You guys get really raw and vulnerable and transparent. And that's what I love about it. Yeah, I'm really thankful for it because we do get women that say, I've never asked this question out loud, or they'll send us an email and, and give us back story and, and say, but don't read that on the air. Just this is my question. And and I've had the chance to interact with a few, like, I can't I need a little more information before I answer this question, and I'll ask the lady a question and say, well, have you talked to your husband about that? Have you asked him why he doesn't want to take Viagra or whatever it is? And then she goes like she goes, that opened up so much conversation. I don't even think I need help anymore. And so just getting to interact with women is really cool. And this isn't specifically for women, but a lot of women are mothers. And we have our new, parenting course, parent training course. And then we also have, which is free, our youth leader library. And so that has sermon outlines or message outlines and 3 to 5 minute videos that the leader or the youth leader or possibly the parent, I think parents should use it to can go watch that 3 to 5 minute video, and then they're equipped to talk with their their kids or students. Those are amazing resources for women. And I wish I could say there's so many resources for women out there. There's not. So let's talk a little bit about that. Why is it so hard to find good Christian based resources to help us answer those tough questions that you know, you're getting on your podcast, or just that we're dealing with from our own sexual brokenness or our own past stories. You know, why is it so hard? And why is the church not a place where we're talking about this more frequently? Well, you know our the latest Barna report that we, we partnered with Barna created for you know you guys know Heidi was at our launch representing Covenant Eyes. It shows that still after all these years only 10% of churches even have a program of some kind. And so and then they're usually for men on top of that. And, and so the shame level of women specifically who are struggling with sexual compulsive sexual behavior or pornography is so high. So their shame, and then our leaders, more of them than not, are either currently struggling or have had a pastor's struggles and they haven't dealt with their shame because getting sober is not the same as breaking free of the shame and using your story. And so we've got leaders who are struggling and afraid to talk about it. A lot of leaders and pastors in the church are men. And and so if the majority of our leaders are men, we need to make sure that we are putting women around the church and said at least saying this is your person to go to if you're struggling, that we're we're verbalizing that from the pulpit, even if we don't have women up there. And then the research also also shows that at least 40% of women are regularly viewing porn. And it's getting really convoluted because women are looking at porn. And then they're saying to me, I think I'm same sex attracted now because this porn is arousing. And I'm like, it's designed to be arousing. That's not, you know, like it's just getting so messy. And I think the way that we have to combat it is people like us just continuing to put the information out there before people need it. So then when they need it, they know where to come. Right. You had mentioned, you know, women struggling to can you speak a little bit to the stigma that is, been on women of that women like, aren't sexual people and that only men, are sexual, you know, very sexual beings. Can you just speak a little about that to what you've seen with all of the people you work with? And, just a little more detail of like that, how specifically like women struggle also. Yeah. Well, I love data for that reason. I'm not a data person. I do not like numbers. Measurables is a trigger word for me, but it's so valuable when we get data because we're seeing that Christian women, 40% are regularly viewing porn. And when we when we dive into why there are so many different things, porn now finds us. You guys know that. That's why we have Kevin eyes on our phone, because we don't have to go searching for it anymore. It just targets us and the the porn industry targeting men. They're they're like, oh, we have this whole pocket of people that we haven't gone after. So let's be really crafty in our marketing and what we do to go after women the same way they did with, with alcohol and, and cigarets. It's like, let's get the women, let's make this appealing to women. And so the number is rising and it is a fast growing demographic. And so women are viewing it because it's falling in their lap and they're curious and it's arousing, but because nobody is talking about it with them ahead of time, they don't know what to do with those feelings when they stumble across it. And so then it can become a curious thing where they're like, I want to go back to that. The other part of it is I have some betrayed spouses. I might have been guilty of this who look it up because they want to know what their competition is like. What is my husband looking at? That is not I'm not good enough for. And then they get sucked into it, even though that's not where they started from. And, and then I have women come into our unravel groups. I specifically remember this one. But this this happens so often they're coming in and their their struggle is more affairs and romance novels and movies and they're, they're saying, oh, I don't really have any struggle sexually. I just had an affair. And then as they finally get into the material, they can see the threads of needing fulfillment through, through love. And and in that search for love, they're willing to do these sexual things, whether it's watching porn or acting out sexually in order to feel loved. And so there's all kinds of things. But honestly, women stumble across it the same way men do, and then they become aroused by it and seek after it the same way men do. And these other things. Yeah, that's good information. And I think you bring up an interesting thought in my mind as you were speaking. You know, I know women are definitely struggling with pornography at much higher rates, even inside the church. But let's talk a little bit, because I'm hearing this more and more when I'm out at events and conferences of the OnlyFans situation, where we have young girls that are being lured into making pornography and OnlyFans, which ends up giving us, you know, so much trauma later in life. I mean, we're struggling through that. That's the sexual brokenness that comes from using our bodies in that way. And participating in that. How is that impacting? And are you guys seeing people come into your groups that are also being lured into this type of, industry with false expectations and then feeling that brokenness on the other side? Absolutely. I have seen this, more often than I want to. And it's it's, you know, I feel like most young people, they're like, I want to be a famous YouTuber. I want to be a famous singer. I want to be an actress. We all want to be famous because. Because media makes that look like you have arrived. If you're if you're famous and you have all of that. And so kids are really vulnerable. Teenagers and young people are really vulnerable to believing that the route they want to take. And so when they're offered something like, hey, this is easy money, it will give you exposure, it will give you opportunity. And they take that and then it just gets deeper and deeper the other side of it. That I've heard from some of my moms. And the thing is, is like we have this perception of what those women look like, and they are the women in our church. They are the women go leading our MOPS groups. And and I kid you not, we just don't have and we have no idea who who is struggling with this. And we can't assume, but they're coming in and saying, well, I really needed the income. And this was easy. I could put my kids to bed and shut the door and get online and make hundreds of thousands of dollars, and then it's hard to stop once you're in it. So being promised something and then having it not turn out to be what they want. Going after vulnerable kids. This is why. And I will tell your listeners, you guys did not hire me or pay me to say this, but this is why things like having eyes is so important, because you get those little alerts that that tell you where your kids are going and online and, and it's not just kids, it's it's obviously adults too. I, I don't know where I would have been at 23 when I was a single mom, but this kind of stuff was not the way it is now, back then. So it's really sad. But but there is a way out and it's so much better and so much more life giving. But it's the women are in there and doing that, and they don't know that there is another way then. Then they don't even know where to begin. So they need people to speak up for them. Absolutely. And I think, you know, we're probably going to see a generation, the next generation is really going to be dealing with a whole new set of issues. But ultimately, at the end of the day, it's all at the root of just sexual brokenness. I mean, whether it comes in the form of pornography or affairs or there's a host of ways that we can become broken. So talk to us a little bit about that. You know, we use that term quite a bit, but what does it actually mean for someone to have sexual brokenness and what what is encompassed in that? So, I it's funny because I have my own story around this, and I was broken as all get out. You know, it's it's like I see it two different ways. You've got predators. Who is the porn industry, who are sex traffickers, who are men who want to take advantage of women. And they they can spot that vulnerability and smell it from a mile away. And that's why secure, securely attached people attract other securely attached people and vice versa. If you're not, if you're into if you have an insecure attachment, it's really easy to for me, let's say I'm anxious, ambivalent when I'm in my weakest places to then be desperate and want to have my needs met in a desperate way. That hurts me. And so, when I when I see women who are coming into this, coming into this exposure, that that's really at the root of it is that they're they're not they're not secure in what they deserve or in their identity. And so they're vulnerable to stepping into these areas that that end up causing them more harm. Brokenness does not have to say stay broken. I mean, if you guys see our betrayal and beyond, you'll see the kintsugi is that was called the art with the gold. And I am such an advocate of I was really careful when we were writing authentically you, Heather and I. To not call the young girls like to not make them feel like they had to stay broken, because I was so broken and God made me stronger than I was before. But that was a yucky narrative message that I had to reframe because of what was told to me growing up. I heard I believe, those messages about myself, and so I had to rewrite that in that I'm a masterpiece. Masterpiece isn't broken. I am a masterpiece. And I was broken. But God restored me and he made all things new. And he made me stronger and a new creation. And he gave me back with the locust, all and all the things of my past. And so, yes, we are all broken and all in need of a Savior. And then and then we get to live in that newness and we get to walk it out. And I think that's what makes people that do our work so attractive. I love being with other people who who can say, here are the areas I've been broken, here are the areas I've been dropped. Here are the areas I've made mistakes. This is what God did for me. This is what the women around me did with me and helped me. And here's where I'm at now. And there's no shame. I can, you know, use that story to help others. And so brokenness can become so beautiful when we don't stay stuck there. And we understand what God can do and has done for us. I think that's so important, Karen, that you bring that up. I think the term, like you said, sexual brokenness. Like like you said, actually were all broken. But I remember, being like a young Bible college student and me and my husband were getting ready to get married, and the counselor actually, you know, they do those little histories to see, you know, what you've had. And I had sexual abuse in my history. She actually told my husband, you do know you're getting damaged goods. And she said it like, right in front of me. And this was like 25 years ago, you know, where there still was not a lot. There was sex was not talked about in the church. And, so I think it's so important that, you know, especially men, it's been talked about for a long time, and it still needs to be. But for women, especially, there's such a connotation that even they've been sexually abused, which a lot of times causes. Yeah, the sexual brokenness that leads them to porn and to sexual addiction, which is what we're seeing in our Covenant Eyes Arise program. As I'm moderating the comments, I, I'm just blown away at how many of these women who are struggling with porn, have been sexually abused. Yeah. I mean, it's just like one of every three that I'm seeing, and it's just very sad that there's been like, you're damaged or broken. Can you speak a little bit to that, to our viewers of women who may be struggling? I know you've you've, connected about that. There's no shame. Can you just hit a little more on that? That if they're walking through things like that trauma that have impacted, their secretary acting out? Yeah. Just share a little bit of in your groups how you see that, start to unravel and kind of be healed with women who have experienced that. Yeah. And I think it is such a disgusting scheme of the devil to go after our children. I've had children who have gone through things and I'm like, get your dirty little hooks out of my kids, you know, and it and that's how I feel even about us, like little Heidi and little Ashley, that it's just so messed up and, and it's saying in, you know, my story, Heidi, I was raped as a 15 year old, and I felt damaged. I felt like, I know now no Christian husband will ever want me. And so I disqualified myself. I didn't have the therapist. You said it to me like you, but the the church messages, even though they didn't mean to. That's what I heard in church, is that I'm damaged. Because when you say being a virgin is the only way. And I want my son to marry a virgin, and you need to save your purity, I. Okay? I'm like, I'm dirty, I'm impure, I am broken, I'm damaged goods and and just like you said, Heidi, it ended up making me feel like, well, I'm already damaged and I'm never going to get a Christian husband. And. And because I was always seeking love, I'm like, this is a way that I can feel loved. I can take control. And I started acting, sexually after that, even though it was such a terrible experience for me. And that's where I think we we need to do better in being proactive to say when you have a sexual experience, that's traumatizing. And if it's at a young age, it's always trauma that you can have a mixed feeling of pleasure, fear, curiosity, arousal. And that is normal. And so that we know what we're experiencing and we know that we can feel that because like you said, it's a huge issue that impacts so many people. And so I actually didn't work through the damage that caused until I went through groups for my husband's addiction and his his history with prostitutes and the betrayal I felt. Then as I went through that I was going way against the addict part of the material apply to me. I'm the betrayed spouse. And so I had to go through the betrayal stuff first and then circle back around and start going through things that were more specific to me because I recognized that I was living in that brokenness. I was staying there. And that's what I mean is we all experience some kind of brokenness in a fallen, fallen world. But the key, I think, is to not stay there and do not have that be your identity. And going through groups, doing all these resources, absorbing the material is what helped me realize that's not my identity. Those are lies that I picked up along the way. You can identify one with your counselor. I can identify a few with church specific things that were done or said to me that made me believe those things about myself. That's awesome. Thank you for sharing that. And your story is somewhat similar to mine. I had a similar experience, but I was 14. And really just instead of taking that experience and getting the help I needed at that point, I jumped off, you know, a cliff and just decided to go full throttle in the opposite direction of the Lord instead of seeking him for healing. And it can be so damaging to young people. And I think nowadays our young people are experiencing different types of trauma because of technology, you know, sexting and the bullying that might happen after that. You know, one text could change your life forever, right? Or, you know, they're they're getting engaged with, you know, only or different activities. And those things stay with them. We didn't have technology in our day. Thank the Lord for that. But certainly I just want to talk a little bit because I know you guys came out with a new parenting resource. And for the moms that might be listening to this episode who are worried about their young daughters and how to navigate technology and the pornified culture and all of that, can you talk a little bit about maybe some things that maybe you wish that you would have had, in your childhood that maybe would have helped you navigate, the situation that you were in, or even just thinking of your parenting now with your children, the things that maybe you've done that have worked well, or things that you have for advice. Yeah. I mean, the, the, the biggest things I can think of our conversation, you know, a lack of conversation tells the kids something. And if if our kids and friends experience something or we see a family member, we hear about something, the way we talk about that in front of our kids, whether we're a church leader, talking about it in front of other people, or a parent talking about in front of kids, we hear that and then we hear, okay, it's not ever safe for me to go forward and talk about that. And so making sure that you're having a conversation about anything having to do with sex, porn or struggles in a way that is full of grace and understanding, but also honest about where it can lead. And so I have those questions with my mom or those conversations with my daughter. And I don't think that you can do it unless you've worked through your own stuff, because if we don't work through our own stuff, then we always dance around conversations that come up, and we're never fully free to be vulnerable with our answers and transparent with our answers. Because, oh, we can't get too close to that one. That one makes me feel uncomfortable. This one's bringing up a trigger I haven't dealt with. And so it's really important that as parents, we work through our own story so we can tell a coherent narrative. And then with my sons, my, they're 21 now. But when we started our recovery and healing process, they were only ten. And so I felt so hopeless, like... Oh no, I screwed them up so badly! Because we were both addicts. I was going through betrayal. We we definitely were. The kind of parents were like, here's the checklist of things you need to do to be raised as a Christian kid, it was more rules than relationship. And so we just started turning that, turning that around even when they were ten and just continuing to go back and even apologize for things and say, hey, I was going through this when I was raising you, or I remember that one time where I kind of exploded. This was what was really happening, and it wasn't about you. And so just being transparent with your kids and teaching them to trust their gut because if even if they come up to you and say, hey, mom, what's wrong? And you're in just a terrible mood from work or something with your husband, and you say, oh, nothing's wrong. That's like a kind of gaslighting your child, you know, like we want them to be in tuned and we want them to be emotionally intelligent and be able to sense what's going on and trust their gut. And so just working toward being 100% authentic with your kids so you can say, you know what? You're really perceptive. There is something wrong with me. I'm not having the greatest day. Thanks for asking. Would be a better response than making them feel like their their gut is off. And so, yeah. Where for your own story, another piece of advice I give is just think about the things that happen to you or your friends or you heard about at their ages. So at nine I said, hey, when I was around nine, we had kids that weren't supervised at sleepovers, and some of us did sexual things with each other. And I don't want you to ever have to go through that. So if you do or, you know, run into that, you you make sure that you call me right away. And, and I can't tell you how many times I've saved my kids from experiences just by saying, hey, when you were when I was 13, my friend in class did this. Is that kind of still happening at your age? And just so you know, like, you can always talk to me about that, just keeping the door open. Well, okay. Changing, topics just a little bit. Let's talk a little bit more about peer desire specifically because, you know, listeners of our show are definitely going to be aware of peer desire because we talk about you guys frequently. But the things that you guys offer and the things that you provide really supplement beautifully. The things that we do here at Covenant Eyes. And so I think that this is a tool and a resource that people can really leverage. So can you share with our listeners a little bit about how they can get connected, the types of resources that you have and the ways that, I think you also have some communities and groups that they could maybe get involved in. So let's talk a little bit about all that. Yeah. And I, I'm a huge fan of, you know, doing the long group like we have and then also doing groups where you can have a quicker start date, get some drop in help. Just a variety of things to, to give yourself what you need. Because when you're early on an addiction recovery or even betrayal healing, you want it. You do want to protect yourself from those outside triggers as you're trying to work on the inner inner workings. And so, do all the do everything you can that you need, you know, if you need more, take more. But our groups are for we have groups for men and women who struggle with anything porn less affairs. Prostitution. It doesn't matter because we know that sexual addiction is not about sex. It's just what we're doing to cope with that, with the symptoms. And so, those all of our groups are about 7 to 9 months long, and they're long on purpose because we want you to be with a support team of people, a group of people who help you as you put these tools and process. If one sermon or one prayer or one anointing deliverance meeting worked, we wouldn't be where we're at. And so taking the time to be with a group, to actually use the tools and renew your thinking, be transformed by the renewing of your mind with people who get it. And our groups are closed. So you join 6 or 7 women in the group, and those are going to be the same women you stay with. And that's why we're saying there's there's huge perks of being able to drop into a group when you need it. It's like S.O.S. and you need help. And then we and then there's a place for our groups, which are we're ready to commit and dive in and do this work of unpacking our story and using the tools. So men and women who struggle, men and women who have been betrayed, we have resources for both, our Sexual Integrity 101 course is kind of like you're just getting your feet wet, and maybe you want to get a basic overview of things. That would be a good course to start with. And then our parent training course could be for youth leaders, parents, grandparents, often good to advertise that as a a way to open a door in the church, you know, because people are willing to help their kids, usually before stepping up and saying, hey, I struggle to find, so that's a good resource for them. It's funny you bring that up that people are often willing to take that step first because, you know, in the news lately, we've seen a lot of mama bears out there and they're, you know, demanding healthy food options, which I agree with. Yes. Please don't put poison in my food. That would be great. But, you know, at the same time, we have poison entering the hearts and minds of our children through technology on a constant basis. I would love to see a movement of moms activating in the way that they have against, you know, poison in our food and in the same way against pornography and the impacts, because we're talking about souls that are at stake here, not just, you know, our health and all of that. So what can we do? To really get a movement of women to start taking action and getting their churches more engaged and and getting more active and vocal out in society, what can we do? Yeah, I love that you said that. I have a little goosebumps because I agree, our kids are growing up to think it's normal, which is why OnlyFans and things like that become so easy. It's we're just desensitized. And so I think it takes those of us who have the information to continue to say, this is not normal. When I was recently in a conversation with a girlfriend and she's now making the best choices necessarily, but she shared a sexual experience and I looked at her and said, that is not normal in any way, shape or form. That is abuse. And she was like, really? Let me like, yes, I think we need to we need to keep saying that as parents, as leaders, as women, we need to keep saying this is not normal. This is not healthy. And unfortunately, there's no one formula to help the church with that. I think it's more of just walking through every open door. And I feel the same way with with parenting, it's not usually as successful to sit down and have this giant awkward talk as it is, just constantly. Here's an opportunity to share a little bit of my story. Here's an opportunity to share part of my experience, or give some advice or say, hey, can I can I give you my perspective on that? And same with the church. If you can go up front and even briefly share. Hey, we have groups for women who are struggling with relationships, love, pornography, whatever it is. And if you're bold enough or you have somebody to just say these groups have personally helped me, that's enough. You don't have to go up there and share your whole story when you say, here's what the group is about and it's personally benefited me, they are in because they want to connect with another woman who gets it. Or you do the same thing with material for betrayed spouses. And you say, I've actually benefited from this, and then and then host an orientation meeting, make sure that you have bulletins in the bathroom. I mean, there we want pastors to see this as the problem that it is like, what would we do if 70% of our men and 40% of our women were showing up high and drunk in our sermons on Sunday? I mean, like, it is the same kind of damage, but but we it's so under the surface and, and so many people are struggling with it and so there's like what we hope for that pastors would see this, that they'd pick up the Barna report and be like, oh my gosh, I had no idea. We need to rally the troops. But but more often than not, it's the it's the mama bear. It's the wife who's been hurt. It's the person who's been abused. It's the woman who found healing from pornography and doesn't want others to have that shame that is just going through every open door and sharing each opportunity. She gets. I love that, and I think anyone listening to this podcast knows that they have three strong allies right here on this podcast. But if you need help or ideas, all of us are accessible and we will definitely support you because it is going to take us stepping forward with some courage and some humbleness to really get things started oftentimes. But there are so many women out there that need us to do that and to lead the way. So ladies, this has been a great conversation. I'm so excited to share this with our audience, and I appreciate both of you. Thank you for being vulnerable. Thank you for sharing your own stories and sharing the wisdom that you've learned along the way, and the great resources at Peer Desire. Thank you so much. We appreciate it. Yeah, thank you for having me on today. I just get so energized by these conversations and partnering with you guys. Awesome. Well, thanks, Heidi for joining me today. It's been so good. And you will see Heidi back on the podcast periodically throughout the year. So we are looking forward to having her lean in to our conversations. And until next time everybody take care. God bless. We'll see you again.