Welcome back to The Covenant Eyes Podcast, Karen Potter here. It's so good to have you joining us. We have got a great episode coming up today. We have Doctor Sheri Keffer who is a regular co-host of a nationally syndicated radio talk show called New Life Live. She has an audience of over 2 million people each week, and for over 23 years, she has worked as a Doctor of Marriage and Family Therapy in Newport Beach, California. Through her own personal story of recovery, Doctor Sheri understands the trauma symptoms often associated with sexual betrayal and post-traumatic stress as a certified partner, trauma therapist, survivor, supervisor, certified sex addiction therapist, a certified clinical partner, special, a certified Couples Betrayal Recovery therapist, a certified clinical empathy specialist, and a consultant in eMDR. She brings new tools and a fresh look at what is needed not only to heal, but to heal. Well, we are so excited to have Doctor Sheri joining us today for an interview that you will not want to miss. Stay tuned. We have Doctor Sheri with us today and we're really excited. Do this every year and just hear all that you have to offer for our listeners and for all of us today. Absolutely. And, Doctor Sheri, while we're on the the path here, let's talk a little bit about who you are and what you do. I, we gave your bio, but how did you get started in this field? What what drove you to this line of work? Yeah. Well, Heidi and Karen, thank you for just allowing me to be here today. And it's it's so crazy how, you never think that the heartache you had, I would say, has been the deepest, the widest, the most painful thing that has ever happened to me would be the thing that you're talking about. And the thing that probably has brought more hope and understanding that any other, any other possible story I could have spoken about. And so I appreciate the opportunity, but it it's it's my heartache that brought me into the world of betrayal trauma and decimation that happened to me and my marriage to Conner. And so, Conner, is a pastor. Don't know if you knew that, but we we served in ministry and in our relationship. There was pornography. Ultimately, I found out there were affairs and prostitutes and while we desperately tried to get the help we were looking for, we didn't get what we needed. And, I'm not blaming anyone. I think this whole area of sexual acting out and betrayal trauma has grown hugely since I was in the middle of it. And I'm grateful for that. You all are grateful for that. But I think, you know, up close and personal to have experienced the sexual betrayal, and to not know what to do to stop the painful things that were happening and our relationship feeling so helpless and powerless and, scared, shut down in my own femininity, feeling, very unfeminine and unlovely and uncared for, unprotected, unraveled. Those were things that I hadn't experienced before, ever in my life at this magnitude. So it's that that got me into the work. And, you know, that's normally I was a therapist and we don't normally share what goes on for us. It just kind of I think for me, I was afraid if I ever let the story out of the bag, that no one would want to come and see me as a therapist. But I was on New Life Radio and there was a woman that called in and she was a pastor's wife, and I felt like it's that she was suffering. And I, I just I'll say, Lynn, I said, Lynn, I don't know if you know this, this is Sheri Keffer and I, I just want you to know you have my story. I have your story. And I, too, am a betrayed partner. I was married to a sex addict who was a pastor and I just went for it, like, throw off the bow lines and the the team that I was working with on that day at New Life. They looked at me during the break and they were like, we didn't know that's your story. And I'm like, no, I know I haven't shared it with anyone, but I just did like in that moment. But it was for the best reason ever. It was because I heard another woman who was in distress, and I knew that kind of pain. And that moment is basically what opened up this chasm inside of me that, gave me, the courage to start talking about what happened to me. Thank you for sharing the story and for your courage to be vulnerable in that way at that moment. It's amazing how God, you know, uses our circumstances in that way. And you have been a beacon of hope to so many spouses out there that have felt the betrayal trauma they have been through, what you've been through. So thank you for that. Let's talk a little bit about betrayal trauma. And what is it, because some people are not familiar with the terminology. And if they're men listening to this podcast, maybe they don't understand the term. Yeah, I'm I it's surprises me. I think because there are so many of us that don't see it as a thing, but it is the damage, the harm, the impact that happens to the person who is unknowingly sexually betrayed in some way can be any kind of sexual betrayal. And along and often with the sexual betrayal. There are these lies. There's this hiding the the blame shifting the the pushback. When we find something, we asked about it. There. There's this this animate. I don't know what you're talking about. So that's an extra spin. Not only have you just discovered that your husband or significant other is or wife, because it's both ways, is acting out in some way. But then like, you know, a double blow to have all the lies go along with that, that are so disorienting. They make you question your gut. Betrayal trauma is any act that happens that is outside of your consent. So consent or wind is when two people come together and they agree to be vowed to one another to forsake all others, right? Whether you're in a marriage or maybe you're in a a partnership where you're like, hey, we we're we're a unit here. We're not going outside of our relationship. Whatever agreement you've had, the sexual acting out is a non-consensual meaning somebody didn't come to you and say, hey, I just want to let you know I am going to look at my phone today, or I'm going to take my iPad into the bathroom, or I'm going to reach out and talk to somebody on Facebook or wherever you are. I'm going to reach out to somebody and I'm starting to make connections and I'm sexually acting out. There is this whole hidden world that you don't know about, and that's where the betrayal comes in. That's a deception. Because there wasn't consent. There was it like, you know, an agreement, a handshake, saying, okay, I'm doing this and I want you to know I'm doing this. I just want you to be able to be aware or give me feedback. It's all done secretly. And that's harmful. It's traumatic. It's not just, doing it and it's not hurting. Anybody know it's hurting the one you're with because they don't know about. Yeah, that's that's really good that you bring up that it is actual trauma. You talk in your book about betrayal causing actual PTSD. Can you speak a little bit to that of, I know that you have some statistics that you talk about in your book, and just how does that play out in someone's life? I know there's probably a lot of people saying, oh, come on, PTSD, that's a little extreme, but can you share with us and our listeners just how does it exactly and to what degree does it really calls PTSD for people? Yeah. And I think I know this from my own personal story and stories. But as I sat with other betrayed partners and began to watch what happened to them emotionally, to their body, to their relationships, to their instincts, to their gut, to their heart, to their faith, I felt like I was in an emergency room, and I most days I was like in the air, like, you know, trauma, a trauma site. And I feel like I had blood just dripping down from both elbows. Not trying to be dramatic. I'm not trying to be, you know, I just instinctively went, this is causing harm. And so I did some research, which is all in my book, Intimate Deception, where I had 100 women, 100 female that are all experienced sexual betrayal. And I included in my research there's a something called the PCL five. It's, a measure as well as many, many other measures that I had embedded into my research. But it was a research study looking at does this cause post-traumatic stress? Can this cause post-traumatic stress disorder? Can this cause complex post-traumatic stress disorder? And what I found is that 76% of us had symptoms of post-traumatic stress. That's three out of four of us. And it was so validating to me. And I think for the one who is betraying is sexually acting out, I honestly and I love that you all asked the question, and have I, the gentleman to listen to this, or was whoever's on the other side? Because I honestly don't think they know about the harm, because they're so much in the process of acting out of doing whatever they're doing. They're not living with a dual reality. They're not living with, this is going to really blow her up. They're living with, I need to cover this up. This could really hurt her, but not like, damage, you know, not like harm. And so I've got men, I've got some pastors have given my book to some of their men's group, and I've got men that have read it that have actually said, Doctor Sheri, thank you for this resource because I had no idea what happened. I had one guy reach out to me. He called me and he just said, I have harmed my wife. I've caused so much damage. I read your book, you know, someone gave it to me and I had no idea of the harm I. Can you help me? Can you help me get her to help? Is this this really honest, real awareness that, he was finally taking ownership for instead of looking at how quickly she can get over it, how quickly I can kind of try to clean up that mess, how quickly I can gift her with whatever. It's just talking to a woman very recently who, you know, betrayal trauma had happened within these last several months. And, you know, he's trying to take her to nice meals and to do some things to make up for it. And she's bleeding out and in no matter what kind of dinner he offers her, no matter what's on that table, what candles, what way or what where the location is, she cannot go there. She can't take it. In fact, it's really hurting her because they're not having conversations that are honest about the impact of harm. He's trying trying to sweep them forward and she's trying to go there, but she's like, I just can't. My heart isn't happy. I'm just heartbroken right now, and I don't I don't want to be here either. I don't want to be where we're are, but I just can't seem to bounce out of it even with all that he is doing. Yeah, I think that brings up a good point. That is something that we hear quite frequently from spouses. You know, they feel they want to move forward, but they physically can't. They're not in a place to do that. Talk to me a little bit about that process that a spouse needs to go through to heal and to to move forward, because that is a that is a journey in itself. And oftentimes when someone's struggling with sex addiction or pornography, the focus remains on that person struggling with pornography, as it should. But the spouse gets left behind and their wounds don't get addressed. So can you talk just a little bit about that? Yeah. We get missed. We get missed. We get missed by well-meaning, well-meaning counselors and therapists and coaches. We get missed by clergy. We get missed because I think the betrayal trauma piece isn't really understood. And the focus, like you said, Karen, is really on the one who's acting out. But we're over here. Like a car accident. Like, you know, the police. There's a car accident. There's a crash. You know, the betrayed partner is wounded like she's got tendons broken, stuff going on, but the officer is actually talking to the one who's driving the car, pulling him over and interviewing him as to the ticket and all of that. And it's like, why am I not getting more care? And then the shame of all of it is a complicating factor in you. Both Heidi and Karen understand this probably more than anyone is when all this sexual stuff happens. We go inside, like if our husband was an alcoholic and we were to share that with some a friend, close friends, or small group people would be. But I'm so sorry. It must be so hard, right? We would, you know, have love and care. But when it's sexual acting out and sexual shame as the one who's been betrayed, not only do they carry shame, we have carried shame and we isolate. We pull away from the very help we need. And, you know, we're like doves in a cleft of a rock. We're like, back in, in. And I so often I'm like, come out, come hither. You know, I, I want you to know I'm safe. I will hear you, will hear you. But one of the things that I've created is this betrayal recovery roadmap. These are all the phases when somebody comes into my presence that I just am meeting and they are in this zone. This is the discovery, right? That's the D-Day. Then when they first find out there's numbness, there's isolation. You can see people pull away. But then the first thing I want to do is start helping them build their strength. And you might go, what are you talking about? Build strength. They're lying on the floor over here. They're they're hurt. Well, they need to be validated to like being in an ICU ward, like a hospital ICU ward. I want them to know I see you right now. I'm not going to first thing, start talking about your family of origin and what happened when you were eight. I will miss you. And I think a lot of us get missed in good treatment. A lot of us get missed in couples therapy because what's not being addressed is the ongoing deception. And sometimes counselors can unknowingly collude. Pastors can unknowingly collude with deception because that person isn't in honesty yet. And so we need safety. And that's what these two phases are for. This is restoring safety and the truth, and this is the growth that comes from it. But I there is a path. There's a path for you to heal. And I promise there are steps that you can take in order to be validated. Get your wits about you again. You know, start getting into what kind of choices you can make in order to get safety and the truth back into your relationship, because you've got to have. Those are the two pillars safety and the truth. I have a lot of the trade partners that try to get safe. They try to get safe in their own body. They try to get safe in the relationship. But often until we know the truth and until our significant other is in the truth. We heal broken. And there's a lot of people that wander and are wounded for many months and some years even have spent thousands of dollars, and they're nowhere near getting the truth. They're just trying to top down what happened without feeling safe and without having honesty with story. Right. That's so important. And you bring up to clergy, a lot of times there's a lot of misperceptions, communications, that the church even gives. That hurt people who have been betrayed even more. Can you speak to a little bit of how can the church help? How can pastors how can, leaders make church a safer place to be for those who are not only struggling because there's a lot more of that right now, but there isn't as much for those who have been wounded. Can you just, you know, some ideas for those who would be listening, who are in ministry? How can what can help the most on that end from church? Well, I gotta give I just gotta give a high five to your very own Sam Black. Right? Who came out with the book? What the church gets wrong about Porn and How to Fix It? And, Sam was kind enough to allow me to write the chapter in the book about the impact to betrayed partners and the chapters called when you have the right to say enough is enough. Right. And I, being a former pastor's wife, I love the church, I love clergy, I am for, positive change and, churches becoming more open to what I think we deserve as people of faith is the gold standard of care. Like, I really think that's what we deserve is the gold standard of care. And and so case in point, when there are situations, let's say there is a church that has some recovery groups that are there and there's those that are struggling with sexual acting out and there's those that are betrayed. What can happen is without the right confidentiality around shared meetings, that wife might go home, share something that shared and group her husband's in the other group. And so now he knows stuff about each other, vice versa. And then the church becomes unsafe to them because those those groups need to be 100% confidential. It's not a time to share what came up so that there can be a safe place. So I think that's something that is something that can happen right away to protect, I think. I think churches might be afraid, might have some healthy fear of opening up their own can of worms. Right. You start, having groups. And I know there's been some women that are in my BraveOne community that have taken Sam Black's book right to their clergy, their pastor, and said, hey, would you be willing to read this? Like, can we can we start a group here? And, sometime they're met with, sure. I mean, is this something you're interested in doing? You know, because, you know, all hands on deck, right? And I know that they're eager people that want to help with that. And I also have heard that there are situations that they're kind of tapped down. Well, you know, I don't know that this is really the place for that in, you know, and and then as I often talk about when I'm presenting, I often present at RCC, the American Association of Christian Counselors, where I get to talk to counselors and coaches and clergy, all of that. And I just compassionately shared, in the last year that there's a high number of clergy just like Conner, just like Mike Conner, that are struggling and they're sexually acting out. They're looking at pornography or, you know, they're acting out another way, cybersex or affairs or whatever is happening. And they're leading a congregation now there. There's a percentage of them that aren't moving in their own recovery, because that might mean their job. That might mean the reputation, that might mean, having to get honest and going into their own work. And where am I going to do that? Where can I do that without losing everything? And with Conner and I, we started to do the work and things didn't change. And eventually because of that, we did lose our position in the ministry. Devastating. But for me, I think that was I mean, we might as well have gotten leprosy. You know, we just lost all kinds of friends and people and, money like Conner had to go looking for a job. And so it can be very scary, I think, for, churches to be in integrity over this and take it all in. But I know of other churches that are doing this. They have horsepower and there's they're they're becoming way stations for people to get healing. So there's there's churches in all categories. But like you all are so compassionate. There are Covenant Eyes and you want to bring the message in. You want all of us just like my heart. Y'all are so committed to let's do more. Absolutely. Thank you for sharing that. I think, you talked a little bit about the need for that safe space and also for community, but safe community. I know one of the things that you offer, Doctor Sheri is the BraveOne community. And I think that might be a really good tool for some of our listeners out there that maybe their church isn't providing the kind of care that they need, but they do need that community, and they do need that safe place. Can you talk to us a little bit about your brave gun community? Yeah. Thank you. So my community, I started it interestingly when Covid happened because my book had come out the year before and I had partners reaching out to me. Well, then we all remember the lights went out and I just I feel like the Lord opened a door with me and, a real dear friend of mine, Corinne, who, we locked arms and I feel like we built this virtual ark of sorts, for betrayed partners. And it's for females. It's a safe community where you can come and get healing for yourself. Like I walk people through, what I call my BraveOne journey, where no matter how decimated you are, you're in the place where you can start getting care for your heart. You can start getting clarity for your mind. You can start getting support safe without judgment. You can start walking through the BraveOne journey, which is eight steps to get to move towards your wholeness. And when I say that, I mean helping to stop the crazy stuff, the acting out that's going on. A lot of us don't know how to do that. And I'm like, I want to bring you the gold standard. And actually what I teach the women in my community is exactly what I teach therapists and coaches and counselors and clergy. I don't hold back from them. Why would I do that? I'm like, no, this. I want you to have it. And and then in there I have my empowerment wheels, another tool I use right away, but I it's a place of hope. It's a place where you can really bring it. And I, it's it's it's safe. We have like, lots of things we do on the entry level to make sure that no bots or anyone outside of a woman who's been betrayed gets in, and I'm grateful for that. We we feel a huge amount of protection around that. And and in fact, I, in talking with you guys ahead of time, I would love to offer a month free. So it's a membership. It's 37 a month. You can stop at any time. I'm not there to not if it's not of service to you. Then I'm like, I don't want you to stay right. And if it if service, then guess what? We're going to we're going to work together and I'm going to help you get stronger. I'm going to help you stop what's going on that's causing you and your family and the one who's acting out. It's so much harm and damage. So if you want to take advantage of that, because, you guys are such dear people to me, right? Covenant Eyes. All you have to do is go to BraveOne.com/covenant. So it's B R A V E O N E.com and then forward slash and the word covenant C O V E N A N T for Covenant Eyes. Right. Just to make it simple. And then just for reaching out there, I'm going to give you a free download called Learning to Trust Yourself again which with all this happening, the lying, the gaslighting, the confusion, the blame shifting, all of that's being covered up, it's a great resource. So I would love, I'll be giving that to your listeners as well. That's amazing. And we'll be sure to put a link in the show notes for our listeners out there that would like to take advantage of this amazing offer. And certainly this is a tool that I think so many could really leverage, because there's not a lot out there for betrayed spouses. And this this is definitely a path that could really help you get that journey to freedom and healing started. So thank you so much for offering that to our listeners. Let's talk a little bit, Doctor Sheri, about you love a book that I think, our listeners also would be interested in learning more about the intimate deception, healing the wounds of sexual betrayal. I would love to talk a little bit about what's what can our listeners find in that book, and who is that book written for? Great question. So it is written, for anyone who's experience sexual betrayal of any kind, like we talked about earlier, non-consensual sexual acts. Now, my research in the book has been done with females because that was, you know, I had to narrow my perspective to do the work. But I have gentlemen that have been betrayed that read my book as well. I tell them just keep the good stuff for you. And if there's things that are different, because there are some things that are different for men that are betrayed than leave that. But, it goes through, it's not only my story. I think that's important. Really important. So that you know right away that I know what you're going through. But it's also what steps, what's a roadmap? What are the steps that I need to take in order to heal, to understand what's going on in my body. There's a chapter called Your Bodyguard, and I unpack all the symptoms that happen in our body. There's a whole chapter on boundaries, that the title in that chapter is no is a complete sentence because so many of us struggle with boundaries. And what we're supposed to do with that. There's a chapter on what the impact of the brain that's it's called when a diamond's not a girl's best friend, because there is a diamond plus in our brain, our our anxiety centers start firing. We start ruminating on what has happened. Not any fault of our own. We don't make ourselves ruminate. We just start focusing in. We're trying to figure out what's gone on. And then the limbic system is the part of the brain that holds highly charged emotional memories. And that's what makes us sad. So we've got sad, anxious, ruminating and said that chapter talks all about that. And then there's the shame, the carried shame. I mentioned it earlier that sticks to us. There's trauma induced betrayal, trauma induced negative shames, that shame beliefs that get wired in, the acting out. And I have something called 180 degree turn around to help you start doing some work right away at getting away from the lie that got wired in at the sexual act, the discovery to the truth. So like, one that's common is I'm not good enough. I'm not pretty enough. I'm not smart enough. I'm stupid. How did I not see this? Well, the truth is, you are enough. And you might go. I don't believe that. And I'm like, I know that's okay. You don't have to believe it right now. But I give you a path for repairing your mind. I'm stupid. How did I see this? What's the truth? Actually? You're smart. You were duped. You were lied to. And so it's not about your intelligence. It's about the hidden nature of sexual acting out. I can't trust myself. I can't trust my judgment. I had those call them the deadly duo. And I did work in order to get back. The truth was, which is I can choose whom to trust. So it's okay not to trust somebody for a while when they're not trustworthy. And I had to repair my own gut instincts, like, because I was like, I don't trust my judgment. And I had to relearn how to trust my own second brain, my gut. We've got this brain and we got our second brain, which is our gut instincts. I had to relearn, my gut and how to repair that. And then there are some, stories of hope. There's a chapter on Where is God because there's faith, spiritual hurt. So there's so much on many, many facets of betrayal trauma, with the focus being on how I really desire to help you heal. And you can heal. You don't have to. You don't have to stay broken like I did for way too long. I healed broken like a limb that wasn't set right. You can heal well. That's beautiful. And I think our listeners would find a lot of value and getting their hands on that book, so we definitely recommend checking that out. In closing today, Doctor Sheri, I would love to leave our listeners with just a message of hope. You know, whether it's the spouses out there that are feeling betrayal trauma or maybe there are, you know, other spouses that are potentially involved in pornography or sexual brokenness, how just leave them with the message of hope for today's episode, if you would. Yeah, if you can. If I can just read one verse, it's it's really powerful. It's actually in Jeremiah, it's Jeremiah 614 and it says that this and I say it because I think it it really speaks to both sides, both people, as they have treated superficially the bloody broken wound of my people saying peace, peace when there is no peace. Now, you might say, how is that hopeful? Well, guess what? The truth of it is. We need to go deeper into our own healing. As a CSat, I'm a certified sex addiction therapist. I actually work with those who compose sexually, act out anywhere from porn addictions all the way to all kinds of other types of compulsive sexual acting out infidelities, the sex addictions, all of that. And do you know what's underneath? Often the sexual acting out. It's trauma. And so until they go into dealing with those wounds of what they were trying to manage when they were younger, most of them found it between the ages of six and 12. Porn. And that porn is a gateway drug into all kinds of issues with their idea around sexuality and what they use to numb out pain because they struggle with emotions and feelings. So not being superficial, going into deeper places of healing. Now for us, I think how many of us we just want to get away from that wound, that bloody wound. And we're like, okay, I just want to be a piece again. Now, the actually the ancient Hebrew word for peace back in the day when it was written like Hebrew, in Hebrew, like, it's like Egyptian or Chinese, it's word pictures. Peace is to me, it means to destroy the authority that establishes chaos. So why am I talking about this? Because non consenting sexual acting out causes harm. It's chaos inside of one person. And until that stops, how can you have peace or hope? Right. For the partner, we need to get on our own journey and get into care. But this is also interesting. So the ancient Hebrew word for lust is ava. And Ava is it actually means the the nail, the strong nail that hooks you to itself. That's lust. The strong nail that hooks you all that sexual acting out the the other word. Another derivative is kavi, which means what comes after the nail. That's the word for hope. So in the Bible from lust have to hope kavi kava. It's what comes after the nail. And I and I know we're alike with this. With you all Covenant Eyes. We're in the the missional purpose of helping people get to what comes after the nail. My life has become a testimony of that. Yours have as well. And I know many, many betrayed partners. And there's significant others that are in sobriety. They're in truth now. They have grown deeper in that. They've grown deeper even than they were years before. Many of them, in their relationships. Is it is it easy work? No, it's not. Is it dealing with the deep, going deeper and not staying in a superficial, let's call it peace. When there isn't peace, it's not. It's not allowing that to stay there because it's really not peace. And, there is true peace. I see it, I can think of the people right now. I have so many stories and faces in my mind. And it can be you if you're listening right now, there is a path. It can be you. You don't have to stay stuck in this. You don't have to stay in the spin of this. You don't have to stay in the helplessness of it. There is a path of healing. And and we're here. I'm here. My community is here. Covenant Eyes is here. We love you. We care about you. And we want you to know it's possible to make changes. Absolutely. And I think that is a beautiful way to close out today's episode. Doctor Sheri, it is been such an honor to have you on. You are so wise and bring so much to the table when it comes to this topic. I know our listeners are going to want to get more, so we will be sure to put all the links in the show notes so people can connect with you and your work. Thank you for joining us on The Covenant Eyes Podcast. Yes, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you, Karen and Heidi, and I appreciate what you all are continuing entity. Absolutely. And to all our listeners, thanks for tuning in to this episode. And we do hope that you check back in and join us on the next one. Take care. God bless. We'll see you again soon.