Hey everybody, welcome back to The Covenant Eyes Podcast, Karen Potter. Here I am, the Director of Relationship Marketing for Covenant Eyes, and I am so glad to be back with you. It's been a minute since we've been in studio, but of course, I've got Rob Stoddard joining me as the co-host today. And Rob, it is so good to see you. How are you? Good, Karen. Good. It is good to be back and talking with folks again. So yeah excited about our our guest today in our program. So looking forward to it. Yeah absolutely. Today is going to be a really unique conversation because we're speaking with an organization that's actually been around about as long as we have. So I mean, 25 years, like at the advent and the rollout of high speed internet, I mean, it's just kind of amazing, that there's an organization that's been out there alongside us in this battle. I love it. Rob, do you want to introduce who we have joining us? Yeah, absolutely. And we've been partnered together with them for many, many years, which has been wonderful. So our guest today, our ministry guest is, Prodigal International, Steve Dulaney. And, Fausto Estrada. Did I say that? Correct? Yes. Welcome to The Covenant Eyes Podcast. So glad to be here. Yeah. Well, great. Well, Steve, if you would start, just kind of give us a little bit of background on yourself and, the ministry and what all all that you guys do. Yeah. So Prodigals International, we, we began as an extension of, a bunch of guys that had gotten together, because they had been in a, secular, 12 step program for sex addiction recovery, Sexaholics Anonymous. And they found that really that they wanted something that was going to focus on their faith, that was Christian based. And so through that process, those men gathered together and, they began the process of sort of, if you will, creating the curriculum. And for many years, the curriculum is just sort of on paper. Right. And, they grew very quickly because the original founder of the ministry, his name's Pat means, who is also a licensed mental health licensed mental health counselor. So Pat founded the ministry back then. And he in that process, you know, he he started to, you know, sort of create a program of recovery that incorporated and integrated and a Christian perspective using the 12 steps. And so it's been, you know, an amazing journey, for us, you know, we started in 2000 and we've been around for 25 years, you know, and so, yeah, it's been we've been around for a long time. Excellent. Fausto, if you could tell us a little bit about your role and how you got involved with, with Prodigal. Sure. Mine is very simple. I'd say so. It all started, I would say, probably, I think four years ago, I attended to a, a group, it's, to an event called the XEC And so, yeah, I mean, I had struggled with, addictions for a lot for a while. And so, you know, what ended up happening is that, I just couldn't find a way to get out of it. Right. And so I was trying just to find a way to, to, to to to just get out of that cycle. But I just couldn't I just couldn't. And so what ended up happening is that I got involved with Prodigals. Should I think, like if I share it in a testimonial way? It happened like this I went to the XEC finding answers, you know, because I was really, really hoping to get just get rid of this thing. I thought that it could be, I think, that you could snap your fingers and then just, you know, get out of it. But it happened to be that it wasn't like that. I was struggling, you know, to get rid of that addiction problem for over eight years now, you know, so the by the time they invited me to the, to the XEC I have been battling this thing for eight years now, eight years that I knew off that it was an addiction, you know, because I started, you know, consuming all of this, you know, probably when I was 12. So I just couldn't stop. I just couldn't stop. I just didn't know how, the year I got married, that's the year when, you know, someone approached me and said, hey, that is an addiction. And then, you know, when, when, when I got confronted with it and when I was confronted that it was an addiction, I decided, like, okay, I have to deal with it. And they bet you I'm not an addict. And so I, I'm going to try to stop for a week. And you know what? I lasted 7 hours or 6 hours. So that's when I realized, okay, maybe. Yeah. Oops. It happened today, maybe tomorrow. And then I started noticing that I couldn't go over eight hours, you know, without having to, to, to to have that, have that relapse. And so, my wife knew about it. We were praying about it, I read books, I went through multiple things. You know, I went through, multiple seminars. I spoke to pastors. I thought I had a demon, and I had to get, you know, just, something, you know, maybe I just need to get that thing out of that. Or, you know, maybe I have a demon inside, and I just need to get it out of out of the out of my system, and. And they should just go like that, and it wouldn't work. Nothing would work, you know? And it was just that. It was just. I was desperate, and they thought, like, I can get fix I this is this has no cure. And I'm a Christian and I don't know how to get how to get how to get better. And so I went to the XEC and by attending to the event, I happened to meet a guy who I told about this addiction problem because they they have a section in which they talk about the topic of addiction. And, and he mentioned the program to me, and that's how I got introduced to Prodigals. And so that's where my journey began. I don't know if you want me like, that's how I started in Prodigals. Now, if you allow me to tell you what I do in Prodigals, it's, it's it's a very different thing. But, but yeah, that's how I started, you know, that's how I got to know the Prodigals program. I love that story. And I really appreciate you sharing your testimony. There's going to be a lot of our listeners that really that that resonates with them. And I think that's really beautiful that you're able to share that. I do want to hear about your work, because I think what's interesting is you were you go into this organization, this ministry, and you get the help and the healing that you're looking for, but you level it up, you take it to the next level. You help them create, the 12 step program for the Spanish audiences is that correct? The Spanish speaking audiences. Okay. Yeah. And that that's the funny part. So I got into the program and they hated it. You know, as soon as I got in, I hated it. It was miserable. I just, you know, there is no not a chance a human being would like something like this. And it's just it's just awful. You lose yourself. Well, it was just so much homework. And then the 30 days that you had to stay sober, and then you had to go in. And, you know, my mentor was I don't know if I can say this in here, but he was a yeah, he was terrible. He was awful. He was he, he would be demanding and he was just so much I thought, oh my goodness, I just, I just, I just I was just hoping like I need to finish this program and I'm sure you know, it'll be quick. But it wasn't, it wasn't quick. And and that's the thing that's when I realized, you know, what do I do now is I understand myself. 12 months ago, you know, or maybe two years and a half ago now. So guess just, you know, it was frustrating and, my mentor was not helping me in the way I wanted to. I wanted him to to say, hey, if I say, yeah, you'll be okay. But no, it wasn't like that. It wasn't easy. So I went through step one, two, three. I liked it, went through steps four, five and six. I hated it with my guts. But one thing was real is that I was getting healed. You know, the minute I got 30 days into sobriety, it was a life changing experience going into two months. Can you imagine that? You know, it's a man that has been addicted for 22 years, and now he's two months sober. And then I'm going into three months, four months, six months, eight months. And my wife couldn't believe it. It's really, you know, I'll jump in just to say that one of the differentiators of our program is the accountability. It's it's structured. It's it's it can be challenging. It's a challenging program. Sometimes we would refer to it as like the last house on the block, so to speak. You know, for men who have tried other programs, other, books, other workshops, whatever it might be. That was really one of the, one of the things about our, you know, program, when it was created originally is that accountability. Accountability is really key. And our accountability is, is extremely challenging, as I've kind of felt salutes to, you know, it was but that was the intent, you know, we we want it to be we want it to be a program of not only grace, but, you know, tough love as well. Right? I mean, it's kind of that balance because recovery and and and and sexual compulsive and pornography addiction and infidelity and all of those things that, you know, you know, that we know about those things hold men in contempt. They hold them, they hold them hostage. And breaking those bonds, and allowing Jesus to come and just be with, and through that whole process. That's always been our goal, right? To bring the ability for men, for their partners as well. We have a partner program called Partners in Process. Our men's program, by the way, is called homecoming. Our homecoming program. We have local groups in the state of Washington and Alaska up in Calgary, Canada. And we also have online program as well. So we have online meetings on Saturday morning for men. And now we have the, the Spanish speaking group. That's how it started. I, I see, and Steve is putting it in a nice way and, and you know, but no it wasn't nice and he tough love. No. That's miserable love. It was just miserable. But but the minute I got ten months into it and then a year into it and then a year of sobriety, it was the hugest milestone that I ever saw in my life. I just went and I remember my wife and I sobbing and then crying and and unreal. It was just unreal. I was about to lose my marriage and, my marriages are the best each of my life. And then I just see all these many blessings coming out of it. My wife didn't want to have more kids, and then you know, one day she's just like, you know what? I want to go for the third one. We already had two boys. I wanted another one, and she wouldn't because of my addiction. And then she said, one day, you know what? Let's do it. I'm all in. And that's when the Lord blessed us with twin babies. And now we're like, okay, we're duplicating everything here. So it's it's fantastic, but it's not enough because it's real. Yes. It's good. Yeah. I mean, I love my sobriety. I'm not going to I'm not going to lie to you about that. I love my sobriety. Today I can proudly say that I'm, I'm, sick love lost and, recovery addict. And my my sobriety date is February 1st, 2022, which is good. It's two years and a half. You know, people may say, oh, you're killing it, which is fine, but but there is something missing. And that that is a component when you when you, when you see others struggling with the same thing, okay? Because when you see the reality out there is that I was one of them and, I was a part of, of of of this club of people who would consider this not a problem, you know, and we've put excuses so we don't have to deal with it and confront it. And that's when, you know, the Spanish, you know, introduction came to my life. I remember I spoke to someone about it and that someone in Colombia told me like, hey, I think you should, you should, you should do something about it. You should start something. And and that's when I, I, yeah, I spoke to Alex, who was my mentor. Fortunately, Alex spoke Spanish because I was going to become a cool mentor. I needed a mentor for the program. And Alex, I personally, I persuade Alex in a very nice way. And I just told them, like, hey, you want me? Do you do you ask me to go through hell? You know, so I could be recovering and now I'm asking you to be a part of of this, you know, thing in Spanish, and you have to do it. You have to do it with me. I have no other no other Spanish Fork to do it then. So. So. Okay. But we we need money. We need resources to pay for this. And I remember I prayed one day, hey, listen, Lord, I mean, I need the money and we need a lot of money to start translating all of this. So what should we do? And then the Lord provided, you know, and one day, one guy just told me, like, hey, here's the check. How much do you need? Like this much? And he just gave it to me and then we just started from there and I just spoke. I just we just, called Steve and say, Steve, we're doing it. It's happening. There is no there's no coming back now. And that's, you know, we started recruiting people and yeah, it started happening down there. So yeah, I mean, there's so many of those kinds of stories, right, where men who have gone through a program, you know, have had a complete transformation of their life. And I'm sure you've heard these stories before, but, you know, that is that is, you know, I personally know that story as well. And it, you know, the, the, the dramatic shift in your life is, is amazing. And, you know, I was I was talking to some folks the other day, about our program. And one of the things that I wanted to point out and I said is so, so much around, you know, addiction, sex addiction with passivity keeps men at bay from God's kingdom work. It just it keeps them at arm's length from his kingdom. It doesn't mean they don't go to church every Sunday. It doesn't mean they're not involved in maybe a men's small group even. But that hidden right, that hidden behavior, it just lurks in the background and it obviously keeps them from being fully, fully devoted. It doesn't mean that goes on in their life and God doesn't pursuing them. But, you know, at least from my perspective, I don't see it that way. But it does mean that they're not able to fully if you will be functioning in the church and participating in the church and doing God's kingdom work. So I think that that is one of the things that, you know, these are all of our programs of recovery, Pure Desire, Samson Society, you know, Prodigals International, our homecoming group. That's what our goal ultimately is, bringing men back into the fold, if you will, instead of sitting on the back pew, sort of, you know, hiding. Yeah. Yeah, that's that is the key. I mean, Christ is the answer in this. And our relationship with Christ is the answer. That's that's where the healing is. So God bless your work is something you guys have both touched on. Is that need for accountability, that need for community? Matter of fact, we we just saw last week, Barna I don't know if you've seen these, but Barna released some brand new stats, really interesting things. One that really stood out to me. It said the 84% of porn users reported that they had no one in their life to help them, walk, walk through this, this issue. And so tell us a little bit more. I mean, you you've talked a little bit, but the the community aspect of your groups, the mentorship, how does all that work with this piece and this accountability is so important? It it is it is core, obviously. Obviously, that commitment to being able to participate not only in the group because group is a big part of our program as well as what we call mentorship, which is, you know, generally identified as sponsorship in 12 step world, but we call it mentorship because of the connect to connection that's required, the engagement that that's required. And that is the idea of bringing men together. And our over our program started with groups that were in person right now in the state of Washington, in Alaska and up in Canada. But of course, that has, also shifted to online. And that's where it gets much more challenging. Right? A lot of us, you know, all of our programs, to some degree are offering on zoom or some sort of an online, program where you've got lots of men participating. How do you create community? And that is one of our biggest challenges in our online, because what it's allowed us to do is stretch out across the United States and Canada, right, and even international locations, especially with the Spanish speaking group. You know, you've got, international locations, Latin American countries involved in, participating in that, but that creating that community, like, for example, in our in 2025, that is a that is like our number one initiative is to create community. You can do it. And I'm sure you know this. I mean, you could use slack to do things like that. You can have text threads and things like that. But we really want to be able to create and bring together community of men where they're supporting one another, encouraging one another, you know, helping those that are in need right now versus tomorrow or the next day, you know, oh, I got an email that me, you know, I mean, it's it's a totally different experience when you're able to offer some sort of a, you know, community based app. And that's our, you know, that's that's our number one initiative. And, you know, and I know a lot of the other programs are doing that as well. But creating that community pieces is absolutely key for us. And we do a lot of work with a local church. And, you know, an important aspect of that to work with the local church is the, you know, emphasizing the need for community. You know, as a, as a mental health counselor, I have, you know, from the time I became a mental health counselor in 2009, which was a result of getting into Prodigals, honestly, myself, my own recovery and transitioning from high tech, where I was in the software world, and then taking over, you know, taking over the ministry in 2006. Oh, my gosh, I'm old. But anyway, you know, taking over the ministry in 2006, you know, that that is just, you know, that has always been a part is, you know, that outreach to the church, that outreach and bringing together that community aspect. And, and, and I know what I, I lost my throw out there. But as a, as a mental health counselor group is is the most powerful way of healing. It is the most powerful way to healing for men. You know, sitting by themselves trying to do it by themselves does not work. Absolutely. Let me ask you guys this because we believe absolutely in the power of accountability and community and working together in groups. We also believe that having guardrails like covenant, I, software and things is essential to the process as well, because during that, especially during the recovery process, you really need those in place as a catchall so that, you know, if you do get tempted, you've got that there, and then your accountability partners in place talk to us a little bit about how you see software like Covenant Eyes playing a part in that journey. No, it's massive for boundaries. I mean, you got to set up the boundaries cuz I mean, when you're let's say you're in danger, right? I mean, so you need to know your, your map. And so the first thing you do is you gotta put the massive boundaries, okay. So you, you, you might create 2 or 3 layers. It depends. You know, on, you know, how your addiction has evolved. And having coven as nice as a first, you know, barrier. You know that will communicate with someone as soon as you are attempting to to, to release, you know, an addictive behavior. It will inform someone in a timely manner. You know what you're against, you know, and then you know, it allows the other person to pray for you, to be, for you, to call you. And that's when that community in the place out. I think having that, you know, without having that in my life, I don't think I would have I would have completed the program. I wouldn't even have, you know, the opportunity to got into the program. Yeah. I mean, from the very beginning, we we are mentors, are trained and educated around the need for those tools. I mean, like I said, you know, covenant has been a partner for a long time. And, that is something that, you know, is always carried down and carried forward, you know, with men who are part of our program is having some sort of accountability on their phone, on their computers, on their on their iPads, whatever the device is. And it gets more challenging as, as you know, because there's so many different types of devices and, but. Yeah, absolutely. We've talked a lot about men here today, and I still heard your story, but you guys also serve women, that are struggling. And as we know, going back to the Barna study, men were seen 44% of women now say they're struggling with pornography. And, so tell us a little bit about how you are helping, you know, women in this struggle also. So our our focus on working with women is, is working with partners of, guys that struggle so have been in intrigued by behaviors. We work from a trauma informed perspective as well. So recognizing that when a partner finds out about their husbands behaviors because in general it's hidden and they have no idea and it comes out of nowhere. And then levels them, completely can flatten them. We, our partners and process is our group program that, is a weekly, support group for, for women and a curriculum that's based on, as I said, trauma informed care, for helping those women, start the healing journey, which is a very lengthy journey. A lot of as you probably know, a lot of, partner impacted partners generally will look at their husband and say, it's your fault. You get fixed and they themselves don't ever fully deal with, the harm that has been caused. And as a mental health counselor, I've dealt with a lot of that. Obviously, working with couples. I'm working with the addicts primarily, but a lot of times I'm doing joint work with other counselors that are working with partners, and we are doing a way to bridge the, you know, bridge that try to restore and, and, and bring that marriage back. And that can be very, very challenging given the deep wounds of betrayal that so many partners experience. You know, I wish, I wish that we could save every, every marriage. But it's challenging. It is very challenging. And the harm and the trauma is deep and profound. So that's that's the work we do. We also offer a 12 week workshop called Brave Warriors, which is also geared toward helping women in a shorter period of time through the initial process of their betrayal wound. So that's, this is some of the services that we offer. I am so grateful to hear that you have that available to women, because I think that's often overlooked in the process is the spouse. So I think that's great. Talk to me a little bit about how you partner. You mentioned this briefly partnering with churches, because I think at the end of the day, even Covenant Eyes, you know, we're we're software, we're online, you know, everything. We develop community within our platforms as well. But ultimately, at the end of the day, we really want to drive people back to those in-person local community relations chips in their local churches because in-person is just always better. So how do you guys facilitate kind of helping your guys make that transition to where they can get connected into a local body, where they can find that additional support ongoing for the rest of their life? In my church, it was very easy. I just went to my pastor and said, hey, you pray for me. You preach to me like for like five, six years. And it didn't work, buddy. So I had this program. It does work. So let's let's make it happen. And that's how we made it happen here. And that's a lot of, Yeah, a little bit blunt. Yeah. Frank. Yeah. That's right to the point. But the reality is we, you know, we have to meet with pastors. And, you know, a lot of times they have so many balls or juggling, especially post-pandemic. I'm sure you you've experienced this. It's so much more challenging to get there, to even get them to, to hear and listen. But a lot of times for us, it's a lot of, you know, just, our demand, they get recovery and we have 250 to 300 men that are actively in recovery. We've helped thousands of men and a lot and a lot of and partners as well. And in that particular case, you know, our hope is that as they do like Fausto did, you know, they're able to talk into and bring their journey of recovery into their church and to share that? And that's the extent that we do. We're actually doing that right now. You know, it's interesting you bring that up. We're doing a massive, direct mail campaign, which, you know, you think direct mail, who does direct mail anymore? Well, sometimes the only way you can get the doors of the church to open is to actually send a piece of mail, actually, because email gets just completely lost. So we're doing a campaign to State of Washington, the churches in the state of Washington right now, you know, educating them because I think, you know, it's easy to, post-pandemic. There's been so much turnover, a lot of attrition, things like that have happened in the church. And so, you know, a lot of awareness building, as you know. Well, for our listeners, guys, how do they find, Prodigal in international on all your resources, especially files to we we at Covenant Eyes we I was telling Steve this earlier, we hear from a lot of Spanish speaking ministries that are looking for resources in this area. So how do they find that? Also on your website, tell us a little bit about that. Well, let me jump in and then I'll let Fausto kind of talk about the Spanish, Spanish speaking. So so our website has a directory of all of you know, all of our, our, our groups are men's and our women's groups, of course, and has links to our online meetings, both of our English speaking meeting, as well as our Spanish speaking meeting. ProdigalsInternational.org. So it's within an“s”, ProdigalsInternational.org. And they can get ahold of us through the website. If they when I, you know, find out more about a group, if they want, you know, more information about our ministry, and those kinds of things. And so, you know, we're always getting inquiries, as well as for counseling services as well. So. Yeah. So that's, that's kind of how they can get Ahold of us and find out about us. And, you know, with the, with the Spanish speaking group, you know, Fausto, talk talk a little bit about that, you know? Yeah. So for for the Spanish, I mean, what we do right now is under the Prodigals website. I mean, we also have a section that takes you to where, you know, our link is for the protocols, meetings every Wednesday at 7 p.m.. You know, mountain time. And so for us, we, we have it in the same, website as well. But it is a matter of, you know, going through the website and, and finding, you know, the link for Spanish. I you saw that they uploaded the video, you know, with the invites for the Spanish speaking folks, the other way I typically do it this I, we have a phone number. We want to have the phone number there so people can reach out to that phone number and we can add them to the, to the WhatsApp group. And, yeah, that's the way you get to get to connect with the Spanish folks. Yeah. I love that. We'll make sure that all of those links are in our show notes so that our listeners can take advantage of that. I'm just so grateful for your work and your, boldness in sharing the truth about your journey. I think it's important that people realize, like, recovery is not easy work. Sometimes we go into that thinking, oh, you know, we're just going to get in and get out and this is all be taken care of. And certainly the Lord certainly the Lord can work miracles. I'm not ever going to deny that. But most of us, we got to do the work. And I love the rawness of this conversation. I love what you guys are doing. Thank you so much for joining us today. It's been a real pleasure. And, we hope to have you back again soon. Absolutely. Thank you so much, Gary. Of course. Rob, you want to bring us to a close? Yeah, yeah. To our listeners, thank you again for joining us and tuning in. Stay tuned for more and more of our podcast episodes. That's it for today. Goodbye.