Hey everybody, and welcome back to a special edition of the Covenant Eyes Podcast. This is our Voices of Victory episode and I'm really excited. Today we have a great guest joining us. We have Brenna Blaine joining us, and she has got an incredible story. And we're about to dive into that today. Brenna, welcome. Thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited to be here today. Yeah. Thank you. And if you wouldn't mind, just give our listeners a preview of who you are and what you do. Yeah. So I always think of the first things of my day today. I am a mom of two boys. I am a wife of almost seven years. And then in the evenings in the in between, I get to be a contemporary theologian. So I work primarily wrestling through, what it looks like to ask questions about faith and suffering. And a lot of that has come out of my own story. That's interesting. Contemporary theologian, I love that. What does that mean for some of our listeners that might not understand what that means? Yeah. So for me, it basically looks like looking at culture today and saying, how does the Bible instruct me to interact with this? How do I look at this with the lens of saying, I'm a follower of Christ and I submit my life to him and to his teachings? So how do I interact with the difficulties of what it means to be a real human today? That's a great segue into. Let's talk a little bit about your story, because I think your story is it's not only heartbreaking parts of it. You know, as I was listening to the things that you've gone through, you talk about suffering a lot and you've really experienced that throughout your life, but you also have a beautiful redemption story as well. And I want to kind of dive into that. So for our listeners out there, can you share a little bit of your history and what led you to the place that you are today? Yeah, so I was born into a Christian family. My dad was actually a pastor for the first handful of years of my life. And so if you asked me, what does it mean to be a Christian? You know, elementary school age, I would have said, I think it's a list of things you do and a list of things you don't do. And I think that would have worked for me for a little bit. But it kind of held this, like VeggieTales-ish view of who God is. And, I think my upbringing in church was pretty, clean or like, safe. And so what I was being told at church kind of upheld that false view of God. And that was okay until my life shattered around age 9 to 10. The first thing that happened is my grandma got diagnosed with cancer, and I remember just praying for her to be healed because I was told that God healed. And then I came home from camp and she had died. And I thought, okay, that's not what I've been told my entire life. And then, a few months after that, my parents sat us down and had a conversation that many kids did through, which is, hey, your dad made some bad choices, and he asked to move out. And so my dad moved out of our home. My parents got separated, and a month after that, I ended up being molested by a stranger in youth sports. And so by the time I was ten, I was sitting with this brokenness and and going, okay, I've been told my entire life that God is with you, but he wasn't with me when I was molested and God cares for you. But it doesn't feel like he cares for me because my family is falling apart and God sees me, but I don't feel seen by God. And so either he's he's not real or he's not the way that the church has described him to be. And so at that age, I didn't have the language to express to my parents that I had been abused. I didn't have the language to express what I was going through a mentally. And so by the time I was 14, I realized a few other things. And one of those things was that I am attracted to the same sex. And so I knew from very loud narratives around me that that was not compatible with the Christian faith. But I prayed every single night to be made straight for about two years, and it just never happened. And so by the time I was 15, I came to the conclusion that when I would graduate, I would walk away from my parents faith and I would come out and, that's just kind of the plan that I have. That was not the plan that the Lord had for me. And I remember I had this blog and I thought it was a secret, but it was very obvious on the blog that I was gay, and someone from my church found it and sent it to my youth pastor. And then at that point in time that that would have been a death sentence for a lot of gay teens. When when teens come out to their Christian parents or their Christian community, historically, it's not a very safe interaction that happens. And so I was afraid that I was going to be outed. I was afraid that I was going to be asked to leave a community that, although I didn't agree with their faith stance, I really found a place of belonging just because of the culture that was there. And so I was wrestling with do I go? Do I go back to youth group and just try to remain unseen, or do I never go back again? And ultimately I decided, I think I can go and get away with not being seen, but I'm five nine and, as unique as I look now, I somehow looked more unique in high school, and so hiding is somewhat comical when I think about it now. In my youth, pastor saw me within the first, you know, 20 minutes of being there and said, hey Brenna, I can we talk later? And I just remember my heart beating in my chest the entire service, just thinking, this is going to be the end for me. And we sat me down and he just looked at me and said, grandma, I need you to know that a lot of Christians wrestle with same sex attraction and I'm really glad you're here. And then he got up and left. And for me, that was a really interesting interaction because he didn't passive by my sin, struggled like he didn't say like, oh, it's okay, or we believe that God affirms this. He didn't he didn't say any of that. But he also didn't, like, throw me at the mercy of a theology that I was still wrestling through. And he didn't ask me to leave. He he gave me the invitation to say, it's safe for you to consider what following Jesus might be like. It's safe for you to come do that here. And that wasn't something I saw taking place in any conservative theological faith institution at that point in time. And so I continued to go to his group, and I was not buying into the idea of following Jesus, but because I was there, I was still being fed a foundation of Orthodox faith. And, I eventually ended up hearing a sermon that talked about how even if you struggle with the temptation of same sex attraction, even if that temptation never leaves you, that God is faithful because he's given us the Holy Spirit to rely on to keep us from giving in to temptation. And so at all, I had always heard, you either need to be made straight, or you're going down like that's it. Those are your two options. And so finally I was given this option that said, hey, even if you never experienced straight feelings or like if you never get rid of the temptation, the same sex attraction, you can still be a follower of Christ because the Holy Spirit will enable you to be faithful to what God has called all believers do, which is a biblical sexual ethic. And that gave me a new option that I had never considered before. I always said right, like I always thought following Jesus meant that I had to be straight, and all of a sudden I was like, okay, I have to deny my desires. But everyone has desires. They have to deny. They're called to deny. And so that stuck with me. I ended up going and doing youth with the mission, which I was running far away from the Lord. When I went to do that, I thought I'd end up on a beach, smoking weed somewhere and dating women still. And I had a radical encounter with the Lord while I was there and realized he's real. He cares for me, and I could not go home and not tell people about who Jesus was. So I didn't know what that was going to look like. But I ended up coming home. And I got asked to teach, and I thought, I've never taught before. I don't want to be in ministry. I don't want to do any of these things. But if it felt like God gave me this opportunity. So I said, okay, I'll try it. And I remember getting off the stage in and feeling this burning passion for the Word of God and for teaching truth and compassion and conviction. And I just went, oh, I think maybe, maybe this is a call that God has placed on my life. And so I ended up going to, Multnomah University to study theology and biblical studies, because I felt like I just needed to be more equipped in teaching. And in the middle of that, I was like, I don't know what I'm going to teach on. I don't know what I'm going to do. And but finding myself to have this passion where sitting in churches feeling like they weren't addressing the things that my friends who had deconstructed or walked away from faith, they had all these questions, right? Like they had questions about, okay, if I experience gender dysphoria, like it's not an issue of it being like, is it real or not? It's a real thing that I'm experiencing. What does Jesus have to offer me? What does Jesus have to offer my friend who feels like they cannot get through the day without being, smoking weed all day? What does God have to offer that person? What does God have to offer? My friends who've already had abortions like the church wasn't talking about those things. And yet my professors at school were saying, no, Jesus cares. He cares for these issues that take up so much space in our minds and our hearts and our reality. And I was really bitter with the church, and I just remember my husband saying, like, what is God called you to do? And feeling convicted like, oh, I have a voice. So maybe I should use my voice to ask these questions so that I can show people who are struggling with feeling like they're incompatible with the Christian faith because they've walked through these things, or they're walking through these things. And so I started, a podcast called Can I Say That? And it was, primarily focusing on engaging culture as Christians and a post Christian world asking questions we normally don't ask in the church. And I stop you right there. Yeah. I think that, you know, this. I mean, your story is so powerful and there's so many there's so much more packed into that. You actually wrote a really great book that dives so deep into your journey. I mean, there's so much packed into it, and maybe we'll touch on a little bit of that, but I want to talk a little bit about going back to that youth minister who responded with compassion. I think that's so important because oftentimes, you know, if it's the person that we share something that we're struggling with or some shame that we feel if they respond in a way that's not caring and kind, I think that can sometimes really lead us into a dark place. And I just what what do you think? The value is of leaders responding in a compassionate way, not necessarily confirming our sin, but loving us where we're at. You know, when someone feels like they're being heard, they are much more likely to trust you and to feel like, oh, maybe I can hear what they're saying as well. But I think beyond that, it's also a picture of Jesus. Right? When we read through the New Testament, we're given so many examples of a God who, although he knew everything, took time to ask people questions that were deeply introspective and so I just remember feeling so disarmed, when my youth pastor, John met me in my humanity. Yeah, I think a lot of people ask, a lot of parents ask me, what do I do when my kid comes out to me? And I think our feeling, our instinct is often to jump through, oh my gosh, what does this mean theologically? Like what choice are you going to make? What lifestyle are you going to live? And I think that makes kids feel like an issue to be solved rather than a person's thing in their in their humanity. And so when we leave space for the person to lead with, for them to ask those questions, you know, I, I think I was much more likely to ask John, like, okay, what does the church believe or what do you believe? Or how can a Christian be faithful when they struggle with their sexuality? I was probably much more likely to ask those questions when I when it was established that he was a safe and caring person in the first place. And so I think it just lays the foundation of seeing someone where they're at, but then also giving them the invitation to ask those questions, rather than us pressing those questions on them and making them feel like a theological issue to be solved. That's so good. I think that's really important. One of the things that we see frequently in the work that we do, because we address pornography challenges and addiction, is that people don't feel safe in the church and they don't feel safe coming forward with this information. And so we're really trying to focus on helping people and educate them so that they can create safer environments in the church. What steps do you think that people can take lay leaders or ministry leaders to make churches a safer place, so that people can ask the tough questions? We should be able to ask those things right and get answers. So, what do you think they can do? Do you have any recommendations? Yeah. I mean, leading from your place of leadership when you're able to share confession in a safe season? So that doesn't necessarily mean when you are walking through, getting help for your issues, like if that's the season you're in, sometimes sharing about those struggles, that's not that's not the wisest place to be sharing. But I think when you are in a season ahead or a few seasons ahead of struggles that you've had when, I just remember, you know, another part of my story is that I have bipolar disorder and a huge barrier for me with that was that I was like, okay, I've heard pastors share about anxiety and depression, but never in my life had I heard a leader in ministry share that they have bipolar disorder. Now, statistics would say like there are leaders in ministry who have bipolar disorder, but I just think, I wish there would have been someone for me to be able to see thriving in ministry who also wrestles with their mental health. And so when you can get up on a stage and and preach the good news of God, but then also share about how he's been at work in your life, through your past addictions, or through even. I think some people get nervous to say that they have continued accountability, which is one of the great things about Covenant Eyes. And what you do is you supply, I, continued accountability for people, which is it's it's real. It's so wise to have, I think, wide boundaries and, and so to share like, this is what my accountability looks like, and this is how I keep myself from these things that have been destructive in the past. Or if you're a lay leader, when you get to have those one on one conversations being a little bit vulnerable and sharing like, oh yeah, this is how, this is this is a thing that we walked through for years and it was difficult. This is how the Lord showed up for us. And this is how we found accountability, and this is how we found healing. When you're willing to share those things that says to the community around you, you you are safe to express the ways in which you also experience the brokenness of humanity. We all sin. We all fall short in. The beautiful thing about what's mirrored in the Trinity is the Trinity is not. There's no sin in the Trinity. The Trinity is a community, and we are called to live in this vibrant community that kind of bares our hearts to one another. And so to step out and say, I've struggled and I will continue to struggle in the now and the not yet in. These are the ways that I get help and you are safe to ask for help here I think is is really significant. That's amazing. I think that's one of the reasons I think, having you on the show, to talk to the people that listen to this show is so important because you have used your your story in ways that I think are helping people come to terms with the tough questions. I think there's so many people that they they don't know where to go. They don't know what to, you know, they they deconstruct their faith because nobody's willing to talk to them about how does culture and theology work together. And I just think that our listeners are going to relate so much to that. You've struggled with mental health issues. You've had, you've had trauma in your life, and a lot of our listeners have had that experience as well. How how do you take all of these experiences and travel the country and share your story and bring people, I guess, closer to the Lord through the work that you're doing? You know, one of the first things that I did when I came to Christ was I read through the New Testament and I just remember being shocked, reading it for myself, because I'd always been fed kind of these cleaned up narratives and then reading through it and finding out the context of, like, the woman at the well and how do that interaction was. And I love how she when the narrative starts, she's at the well in the middle of the day to avoid people from her town because she has so much shame and guilt from her story. And then at the end of the narrative, she is going back to her town to tell everyone that she was hiding from earlier about the man Jesus, and what he has done for her in her life. And I just think that is like one of the best pictures of throwing off not only shame and guilt, but like the chains of sin and struggle. And so I think every everything terrible I've ever done in my life or I've ever gone through is a result of sin. And brokenness. And so it's either mine to own or other people's their own. That's the thing, right? Like when I share about these things, I think people are like, man, that's so heavy that you've been through that or even things that I've done that can hold a lot of shame that maybe the enemies like, don't say that, don't share that. It's like, no, like God has given us freedom. Yes. And so if I can go and share the gnarliest parts of my story, knowing that someone else, one will feel seen in that narrative because other people have gnarly stories too. Yes. But to go, oh, I've never considered that Christ sees me in this place that is so worth sharing out. Those things that I have felt shameful in the past, or have felt too big for faith circles in the past. And I think that's the goodness of God is that he's not causing these terrible things to happen, but in his good, by and for us, if we let him, if we relinquish these things to him, he can use them. That is the best storyteller we have in this world, right? The sense that God who takes up our our dirty cloths and then makes them into a tapestry is something beautiful that I. I cannot get over that. That's amazing. You know, we kind of skipped ahead in your story a little bit, but you talked a lot about, you know, the same sex attractions that you had. And then we heard you mention your husband. And so there was a there was a story behind that. So talk to me a little bit about the journey God took you on there, because in your book it is kind of it's it's an amazing story. I read it and I just was like, oh my gosh, this is beautiful. You know, the whole socks and everything. I loved it. So we share with our listeners a little bit about how that happened. What was the path forward from that? Yeah. So when I had surrendered my life to Jesus, one of the first conversations I had with God was, okay, maybe I'll be alone for the rest of my life because I understand that I don't have to be made straight, and I also don't think that's going to happen for me, which is okay. I think God is sufficient for us. But I always wanted to have kids. I always wanted to have a family. That was a huge desire that had since I was two years old, and I had met my friend Austin, when I was 14. We had one short conversation and he talked about wearing socks with his Tom shoes, which I thought was so weird, is like the most bizarre, awkward conversation we had ever had. It's been him, almost every week for four years, and we never once had a conversation, never, never. It was like he was friends with my friends. Friends. And I just saw him around. And then he, ended up writing me a six page letter of encouragement when I was in my womb because he saw I posted my mailing address online and he just thought, missionaries need encouragement. I would love to encourage Brenna. And I thought he was totally in love with me, which I was like, oh, this poor kid. He doesn't know I'm gay. Like, it's fine. But Austin and I ended up being one of the only people I talked to. I was gone for six months and we just formed a really quick and significant bond over, God changing us. He didn't come to Christ until he's 18. And so we both had, somewhat similar stories in that regard. And I kept thinking like, this is so weird because it's like, I'm in love with him. Like I love him as a friend, but I'm not attracted to him. And this, this so weird. But I think there's like a moment when I went, oh, wait a second, like, maybe I should pray about this. And I remember praying and asking the Lord, like, I know sex is not everything in marriage, and attraction is not everything in marriage, but it is a decent part of marriage. It is an important part of marriage. And so, God, if Austin is the person that you might have for me, would you just gift me with attraction and whenever I tell this part of my story, people always ask, okay, so do you think same sex attracted Christian should pray to find attraction to someone? Like, no, I think you should pray for God's will for your life. And that might be getting married and it might be singleness. And both are good. Yes, from the Lord. But I remember a few months later seeing Austin and going, I think this is what it's like to feel butterflies for a dude. It was like the weirdest thing in the world and that just never went away. And Austin was so gracious. I shared with him, you know, I was not out publicly at that point in time, and I shared with him my story, and I expected suspicion, and I got graciousness instead. And that made me fall in love with him more. And, yeah. So now we we've been married for seven years, and he's, the most encouraging person I have in my life in terms of just walking with someone, but also in the ministry that I, that I get to do. People who say a lot of strange things when and this is your story and yeah, he's a very gracious man. So that's awesome. Thanks for sharing that story that I thought that was a really cute story. And it was unique because you didn't start off, you know, madly in love. Like the story always goes, right. It's real life. So I love that. Well, you have two kids now and you adore them and you love being a mom. I would imagine. Yeah. It's like a great experience. How are you? I mean, based on everything that you've been through in your life, I'm sure you think about this off. Do you know how to prepare your kids and protect them? Because obviously you went through some really significant trauma and so are you. Are there things that you're doing differently, with your children that maybe your parents didn't do with you? Yeah. I mean, I think my parents did the best they could do. And I think I'm so thankful for this. I think there's been a shift in culture about, psychology and how we prepare our kids and have really difficult conversations. And so they're really, really basic conversations that it's like when we talk about our bodies, we use, atomically, correct names, right? When, and we're not we're not shy about having clear conversations. One thing my mentor said to me at one point in time is have a 101 minute conversations about sex instead of one 100 minute conversation about sex. Perfect. I know my parents. We're just trying to do what was best doing. You know, I came out of the purity culture pale end of that kind of, time and and life. And so they were trying their best, and, and so the conversations were long, and then there were a few. And so I think we're trying to shift and have many conversations with our kids so that it feels normal in that they're not ashamed to have questions about their body or about sex. Another thing that that we're doing that, we're kind of waiting for our kids to profess their own faith. So when we have conversations with them, we don't say, because you are a Christian or because you love Jesus. But we do say, hey, your dad and I love the Lord, and we submit our lives to him. And so because that's who is the Lord of our lives, that we look to the Bible to inform the way that we are raising you so they know they're being brought up in a Christian worldview, but they're never told because you're a Christian. They're they're informed that that's what we believe in, that one day, we pray that they will choose to have a relationship with Jesus. And so I feel like that also gives them a little bit more of an invitation to talk to us about things like faith in general. Like, these are my questions about faith, and these are my questions about God. There's a lot of significant research coming out about why your kids shouldn't have smartphones before their six teens. We are really bought into that idea, and we, you know, we will incentivize, our kids. Like, I'm unashamed of saying that that we are, their lives are going to look very culturally different to the kids around them. But we also know the kids are most important at a very young age. And that is not something we're willing willing to risk just so they can fit into the culture around them. We don't want them to be prude. We want them to be compassionate and understand that people live different lifestyles, but we're also not going to be what I would consider foolish, if I can say that gently, and have real, really strict boundaries around screens and what is allowed and what's in our house. That's incredibly wise. And you're right, the research does show. I mean, kids are not prepared to handle the internet at a young age. Their their brains are not fully developed. Right. And to be exposed to pornography at six, seven, eight years old, that can shape their worldview, that can lead them astray from you know, the Lord. So that's really wise. And I love the micro conversations. I like that I just, you know, that's the way that it should be done and it makes it not weird. And I think that even relates to the church talking about everything that we've talked about today and the things that you talk about. We need to talk about all these issues frequently, and then it becomes not weird, right? Not different. And people feel comfortable and they can ask those things, well, what I guess, you know, as we bring today's episode to a close, it's gone too fast. And I can't believe our time is almost up here. What are some words of encouragement to people? Because, you know, we have listeners that, they're certainly struggling with pornography. You know, other sexual issues they might have, you know, they might have a broken marriage. They might be dealing with, you know, sexual identity. There's a lot of things packed into that. What what words of encouragement can you provide them? I had a friend who, when I was in high school just trying to figure out I was confessing to her, having watched pornography. And I was so, so shamed. Like, I just felt so much shame and guilt. And I remember she looked at me and she said, Brenda, when you open a door to a room where you know the light is off in the room, are you afraid that the darkness is going to spill out into the hallway? And I said, no. And she was like, well, why? I think, well, the light in the hallway will go into the room when I open up the door. And she said, that's what it's like when you confess in Christian community. And I thought, well, you know, even then, like, I still was like, whatever Christian community like, so cheesy. And I'm not into it. But that conversation has stayed with me for over ten years now because it's so true. Confessing and Christian community, no matter what it is, when I like, if it's, if you're afraid that your marriage is going to fall apart if you confess this, I just think about the Lord and his graciousness to you. And there's this thing that my husband says in the book, but it's everything I think I don't have, I actually have in Christ. And so the things that we think we will lose from confessing our big I have seen marriages fall apart because of addiction. I have seen families fall apart because of addiction. But I've also seen those people within those marriages and within those families get freedom and restore their relationship with Christ, which is everything. At the end of the day, that is everything. And that is what I think is offered to us in relationship with Christ and then in relationship with Christian community. So don't be afraid that your darkness is going to spill. And when you open that door, the relief of light is one of the greatest things you can experience. That's incredible. Oh, that's beautiful. I think that's a great way to bring today's episode to the close. Thank you so much for joining us today. It's been such an honor to get to meet you and hear your story. And can you tell our listeners in closing about your book, too? Because I think if they can get their hands on that, I think they're going to get a deeper dive into your story, which there's so much packed into that and so much wisdom that you learn from that. What's the name of the book? Yeah, it's called can I say that how unsaved questions lead us to the real God and the basic premises? I think in this day and age, everyone believes that suffering questions in doubt are an off ramp to faith. But when I look at my own story and I look at the biblical narratives, questions, suffering and doubt when leaned into can serve to unveil the character of God even more in our life. So how can he do that? That's basically the book. It's awesome, and I would highly recommend it to our listeners out there. You want to check this book out? Well, thank you again for joining us today. It's been an honor. And, that brings us to the close of this episode of the Voices of Victory Covenant Eyes Podcast. Thanks so much.