Exploring Vulnerability, Healing, and the Power of Conversation with Tim Ross

Speaker 1: 0:05

Hey everybody. It's Karen with the Covenant Eyes Podcast. We are so glad to have you back with us for a great episode today. Of course, I've got Brandon Clark with me and he has got all sorts of fun things going on in his life. Like you just got a new goat. Tell our listeners all about this.

Speaker 2: 0:22

I did just get a goat. A lot of people have goats for milking and different things like that, but, fun fact, goats are really good for weed control. We have horses too, and they're really picky and they won't eat the weeds, but goats will. So that's our weed control solution here in Minnesota.

Speaker 1: 0:45

That's awesome. Well, it's good to be back. We have a really good show for today and before we dive in, I just want to remind our listeners be sure to subscribe to the podcast. It's the fastest, easiest way to get all the new episodes right into your inbox or right into your favorite podcast platform. So make sure you hit that subscribe button and then also, if you wouldn't mind, leave us a review. We love your feedback. So enough of the promotional pieces, let's jump right in Brandon.

Speaker 2: 1:12

Yeah. So, karen, we have a lot of fun conversations, and by fun I mean that you know they get vulnerable, they get to be tough at times, but we really like that because the work that we do at Covenant Eyes is full of all of those different things, especially in working with the church and working with people struggling with pornography. And I was on Instagram I don't know probably five, six months ago, and I stumbled upon a gentleman who is not afraid to go deep, he's not afraid to get vulnerable, and I'm like man, this guy is perfect for the Covenant Eyes podcast. So I just want to welcome in Tim Ross. Hey, tim, how are you doing today?

Speaker 3: 1:45

I'm doing well, I'm so grateful to be with you all. Thank you.

Speaker 2: 1:50

I'm just really glad to find a person who isn't afraid to just turn the world upside down. That's your organization. Upset the world right, so bringing in the gospel message, but bringing in the truth, and it's not always easy to hear the truth or to talk about the truth, and so that's what we're going to do today. For our listeners who haven't heard about you, though, can you just give a brief rundown on what you're up to?

Speaker 3: 2:15

Yeah, so my name is Tim Ross. I am originally from Southern California, born and raised, grew up in a pastor's home. My parents passed through the church for 15 years. It's actually the church I gave my life to Jesus Christ in, and June I'm sorry January 14th of 1996 is when I gave my life to Jesus, Started preaching one month later, February 25th of 1996. And for the last 27 and a half years have traveled, worked on staff at churches, led a church for seven years and now I hold space as a podcaster where we get to do just what you talked about, Brandon and Karen just sit down with people and create a safe space for them to give us the gift of their vulnerability.

Speaker 1: 3:07

That's incredible. So tell us a little bit about how you got involved with social media and influencer work, because it's a unique avenue for reaching and teaching and preaching, and I just I'm so curious to learn a little bit about how you got into that and how you sustain that, because it is a tough space to be in. There's a lot of people out there all trying to get attention at the same time.

Speaker 3: 3:29

Yeah, that's a great question. So this was all an act of obedience. I'm an introvert. The last thing I want to do is be an influencer. It's cringey to even think that I'm in the same sentence as that, but I've reluctantly embraced it.

Speaker 3: 3:52

Long story short, in May of last year I have a dear friend whose son wanted me to be on his podcast While I look young. I'm 48 years old, I was born in 1975. So I'm thinking, hey, I'm going to do a solid for generation Z, right, and I'm going to sit down and be on my friend's son's podcast. And when I got up to leave, I really felt like God said I need you to do a podcast. And I was like no, and he was like yeah, and obviously, as you know, he wins those arguments. And so we started the podcast July 6th of last year and three and a half weeks later we had 25,000 subscribers on YouTube and just over I guess we're coming into our 15th month we have about 285,000 subscribers just on that platform alone.

Speaker 3: 4:48

Our Instagram page went over to half a million. I had 32,000 followers, which was a lot. For me, it's a lot period, 32,000 is a lot, and now it's closer to 600,000. So I did not plan this. I really didn't, but I really felt like my mandate was to take all of the private conversations that I had with those that I mentored and discipled privately and bring in public and I knew that would be scary. I knew it would turn a lot of people off, especially church people that I preached to, because I knew they were going to be shocked that I don't sound sitting the way I sound standing. But I really felt like it was important to bring that level of dialogue and that level of vulnerability to the forefront and I am very surprised at the amount of believers and unbelievers that resonate with the content. I really am.

Speaker 2: 5:48

That's really special and I've listened to the podcast before and I just love the vulnerability as you were mentioning that you dive into, you don't shy away from anything, and I think that's really important. The podcast we're talking about, of course, is called the Basement, and what I love about it is you call it a safe place a safe place to be able to address all these topics. I'm curious to know. Obviously, your social following has continued to grow. The podcast followers and subscribers has continued to grow. What has been the response? What have you been hearing from people who are tuning in and listening to this message?

Speaker 3: 6:22

Yeah, what's been interesting, brandon, is that, and insightful is that these conversations and the way we go about them. Right, we don't go about them in a combative or debating way. I'm not trying to have a gotcha moment. It's not meant to be sensational, it's not meant to be adversarial. It's just meant to hold space for people that are wrestling through their faith if they believe in God, their unbelief if they don't. And the great equalizer for all humanity, life. Right, like what's going on with me? How do I show up in the world? Will I be accepted for who I am? I'm going through this season right now.

Speaker 3: 7:10

I'm not saying I live here, but I do have to acknowledge that I am here and so just being that level of safe with people, we have had people in my 27 years of preaching I've never reached celebrities that I know of, right, that have, like DMs, called ask for prayer.

Speaker 3: 7:37

We get for a request from porn stars and only fan models and NBA players and football players, and I mean they're leaving like 10 minute voice notes in our DMs like telling us all their business. Like I'm in the middle of a free agent trade and my marriage is falling apart. I saw one of your clips. Can you please pray for me, or at least can you talk to me? And if you're not going to talk to me, please stop giving these clips out, because my wife keeps sending them to me and I'm mad, right? So we get all of this feedback, and the overwhelming majority is very, very positive, and some of it is negative because we trigger people. Vulnerability will trigger somebody that hasn't done their own work, and so we have to be okay with that as well and love them, even though they're having a negative experience with some of the content we put out.

Speaker 1: 8:32

That's awesome and it's really good to hear that you're getting so much feedback from so many different people. I love the fact, too, that you're a Gen Xer like me, who it's amazing that God is kind of calling Gen X to step into the role of mentor now. For a long time, we've kind of been that quiet generation that's just kind of letting the baby boomers do their thing, and I feel like there's kind of a movement of us stepping into the role that I believe God has called us into, which is fantastic. When you are doing your podcast, how do you pick topics that you know are gonna really hit home with your audience? Do you do research? Do you take questions from your audience? How are you finding those topics?

Speaker 3: 9:13

Yeah, so we don't pick topics, we pick people, and I'm a storyteller. That is my default setting. The stories of the Bible are what I've preached for 27 years. The story of my life is what I talk about, and the story of other people the stories of other people is what I listen to, and so the topics actually emerge from actually listening. Right like if you let someone talk long enough, they're going to tell you what the topic is, and so none of our podcasts are scripted. They're all extemporaneous, improvisational. I have no lead-in questions. I don't have cue cards where I'm like so tell me this next, right, I just let them talk, and as they're talking, I always feel like the Holy Spirit's with us. And I'm a very curious soul as well. I went to school and studied administration of justice because I wanted to be a homicide detective, so I'm a naturally curious soul, and so, while I've what I've told my friends now stepping into this lane of my life is that I spent 27 and a half years talking, now I spend the majority of my time listening.

Speaker 2: 10:40

That's powerful. I think that's really important too, because everybody has a story to tell.

Speaker 2: 10:44

But if we're so busy talking about ourselves and talking about what we have to offer even if it might be the gospel message right we don't get a chance to meet people where they're at and they'd be able to hear their story and walk with them, journey with them, but we see a lot of that at covenant eyes and just providing an ear for somebody who is really sometimes having the worst day of their life, and they just wanna be heard. I think that's really important. A couple of topics that you don't shy away from which I'd like to talk a little bit about are sex, sexuality, pornography. Those are, and can be, triggering conversations, but why do you take them on with, I would say, such intensity? I mean, you really just dive into them and hold nothing back.

Speaker 3: 11:33

Yeah. So I was sexually abused by a teenage boy that lived across the street from me when I was eight years old and later found out that he had abused every kid on our cul-de-sac, including my younger brother. And so obviously, at eight years old, you have no idea what's going on. But I did know that if I told my parents, my dad would kill the dude. So I actually saved my perpetrator's life right Cause an eight year old boy is thinking if I tell my dad, he's gonna kill this guy and my older brother, who's 10 years older than me, he's probably gonna bury the body. They're both gonna go to prison, my mom's gonna be brokenhearted and I'll never see anybody again, right? So the underlying narrative at that point in my life, brandon, was that vulnerability is dangerous. You cannot tell the truth, because if you tell the truth, your whole life explodes. And so that lie just continued to burrow down. Obviously it wasn't a thought. It's something I worked out later in my life in EMDR, but that was the underlying narrative that I was believing.

Speaker 3: 12:53

At the age of 12 years old, I was exposed to pornography. A couple of electricians came to fix a power line on our block. All these kids were on the passenger side of the big utility truck and they kept on begging this guy show us, show us, mr, show us. And so I ran over there out of curiosity, trying to figure out what the other kids were trying to look at. And he was holding a, he was reading a hustler magazine on his lunch break and he showed us the centerfold and I just drank that image in. That was my nicotine, that was my crack, that was my whatever. Whatever it was the hook. Right, pornography became the hook, these nude images became the hook, and it just grew from there. And so I just remember the silence of it, I remember the shame of it, I remember the, the depression of it, like you know, over the years, culminating to where I was 19, I was like this is gonna be my life, like I can't even stop. So porn and masturbation was just this cyclical thing. I couldn't break it, I was ashamed of it, I threw it away, I jumped in the trash can, pulled it back out like full on addict behavior, right.

Speaker 3: 14:22

But when I'm 19 years old, my mom actually catches me watching porn and a night that should have been filled with embarrassment and shame became a night of freedom for the whole family. So I told my mom that night that I was abused and I might as well the eight year old in me, in my 19 year old body, got to talk to his mommy, finally, right. So I told mom what happened. Obviously she's devastated. She calls my dad to come home. He worked nights for the post office. My younger brother discloses that he had been abused by the same boy. Then my mom confesses that she was sexually harassed when she was six by her babysitters. And then my dad confesses that he was sexually abused by the comic bookstore owner when he was five years old. So in one night, what should have been filled with embarrassment and shame, this huge light comes in and it was like a 2000 pound slab of concrete came off my chest. And I knew right then and there I will never hold a secret again as long as I live Like. I don't care how embarrassing somebody thinks it is or how shameful it may sound. I can never be bound and gagged like that again.

Speaker 3: 15:52

Six months later I gave my life to Jesus and there was just this. There was always this thought in my mind that if you could break the silence you can be free. I always remember how dark and huge and looming pornography, low self-esteem, insecurity felt when I was silent, and then I remember how small in comparison it felt when I spoke. And so Psalm 94, 17 in King James says and I believe David wrote it unless the Lord had been my help, my soul would have dwelt in silence. And so I knew it was God that helped me open my mouth, cause it's the first thing we know about God is that he spoke. So we were created to speak, and the very thing the enemy wants us to do is be silent. The first thing he tries to take away from us is our ability to speak. So I knew if I could speak, I could start that journey of freedom, and it's a journey that I did start.

Speaker 3: 16:58

I have been a client of Covenant Eyes. This was a part of my journey in healing, starting off with accountability, because, as much as I endeavored in my will to please God and be faithful to my wife, I needed help. I did not trust myself online, I did not trust myself with a phone, and so I needed the accountability that you all afforded me, and you know hundreds of thousands of others, and that was a tool that helped me practically while I began to do the you know the so exhausting work of getting to the epicenter of why porn even became a thing in the first place. Cause pornography is a symptom, it's not the root of anything. Cigarettes is not a root, crack is not a root right From the hood. So we know about crack.

Speaker 3: 18:05

So, like again and I think this goes back to the investigator in me right, I wanted to get to the root. I need to know why the trigger was pulled, I need to know why this was the recourse, and so I just kept doing my work until I got down to the epicenter of my soul and realized that attachment and abandonment issues were the core traumas from that sexual abuse that I endured. And I was able to start rewriting those narratives, and the main one that came out that I kind of came out, if you can imagine, like holding up the WWE championship belt right, or like a heavyweight boxer holding up their belt was the narrative that vulnerability is my superpower. I feel like that's where everything changed for me. It went from vulnerability is dangerous to vulnerability is my superpower, and once I had a hold of that language, I think the subheader to that statement is I am vulnerable at the expense of other people's comfort.

Speaker 1: 19:21

Like.

Speaker 3: 19:22

I'm just gonna be me, and if it makes you cringe, you're gonna have to figure out where to go, or turn it off, or block the count, or change the channel or whatever you have to do. But people need someone, someone who will shoot the elephant in the room.

Speaker 1: 19:43

Yeah amen, absolutely. We need that. Oh my goodness.

Speaker 3: 19:49

I Volunteered for the job.

Speaker 1: 19:55

You know. I think that's why you are really hitting home with the younger generation, because they have such a need and a desire For truth. They are truth seekers and they're being filled with a lot of lies, you know, but they are starting to catch on. They know that they, they have some trust issues right, but they are seeking truth and so they are. The vulnerability piece is so attractive to that generation. I have two young Gen Z's and I. You know it is amazing just to see that generation Come to the foot of the cross, but in a different way, a different way than.

Speaker 1: 20:29

I did in my own personal journey in our generation. So absolutely amazing work You're doing, thank you.

Speaker 2: 20:35

Thank you, thank you, and I think getting uncomfortable is a good thing, isn't it Tim?

Speaker 2: 20:41

Right status quo and we're just moving with life day to day and we're never experiencing anything that jolts us out of our comfort. How are we gonna get to the deeper longing for truth? And so I think what you're talking about is really important, because when we are having to Look within us and ask ourselves, why is this making me uncomfortable, you know, why is the the truth of the gospel? Or you know the different things that Like, let's just say, jesus encountering the woman at the well right, let's imagine, like that, coming to life in today's day and age, and in encountering, you know Of a prostitute on the streets or something like that, not that we're engaging in that, but you know, just those, those different things that we encounter really cause us to Search and, and you know, kind of dive deeper into that.

Speaker 3: 21:35

Yeah, we, we, we have, We've had the ability because of these conversations. And look, I get it from both sides right, I've been a, I've been a preacher for almost 30 years. The power of the, the, the Gospel in its preached form, is to the salvation of souls. I believe the power of conversation is for the sanity of mind. The sermon is to the saving of a soul. There's no transformational thing like it. Paul calls it foolishness because it shouldn't even work. Right, somebody getting up preaching about the invisible man and somebody cries and goes I want to accept him. Right, it shouldn't work. There's no body with the oratorical skills to make somebody come to Jesus. Right, that's the power of the Holy Spirit. But, but the conversations have the power to Help us ruminate and and to digest and to process. I Don't get to preach a sermon and and then at the end do a Q&A, right, like I don't get to Teach a Bible lesson and then like, okay, let's open it up for questions and and hold court for another three hours. And so our podcast and these long formats give us the opportunity to, to, to really process these type of conversation. I'll give you one that is one of my favorites. So I did a message on sexuality and and actually walked through Leviticus 18, right. So I don't know how many Lead pastors you've heard teaching Leviticus 18 in the last decade, but I felt compelled to do so.

Speaker 3: 23:23

Indeed, and there was a young lady who filled out a Google form To be on our podcast and so she came down. She drove down from Oklahoma with her roommate and her and her two therapy dogs. She sits down with us. She's shaking like a leaf right before we start. I mean visibly nervous and shaking. Our producers are like this girl is really rattled and I'm like she'll be fine. I'm gonna give her a big hug and tell her there's nothing to be afraid of. Well, she sits down and the reason why she wanted to come on the pot is that she was actually very upset with my message that I did on sexuality and she disclosed that she was bisexual, something that she had not done even for her family. So her family wasn't even gonna find out that she was bisexual until they saw the pod. So the girl was already brave, right.

Speaker 3: 24:19

So she comes, she's. She's like I heard your message and I'm bisexual and basically I'm very, very angry because You're basically saying that if I fall in love with a woman, that I can't have sex with her, and my response was that must be devastating for you. It must be devastating to hear that I just held space for her. I didn't have to thump her over the head with the Bible. The Bible said what it said, so she doesn't even have an issue with me. She actually has an issue with scripture. And if we all read the Bible straight through and don't have an issue with anything, I don't know what we're reading like. We're probably not reading the Bible. We're probably not reading the Bible. We're probably reading a sanitized pamphlet that has pulled out all the you know, difficult bits, right?

Speaker 3: 25:11

Yeah so what was beautiful about that pod with her is that we had this great conversation and at the end it was so beautiful. Soon, as we wrapped and all the you know, the cameras went off. She goes. I feel so much better after our conversation and here was the biggest compliment she goes and you didn't even answer my question, like we don't always have to have an answer for everybody's question. Right, like the Jewish rabbis have always been comfortable holding the tension Of the Torah, of the text of humanity, but we, it seems like Western culture and Western culture, it seems like Western culture and Western thought seems to be more Concern with the black and white, right, just, it's either right or wrong. You see the good or bad. It's black or white in the Bible, sometimes red. We just need to line up with it and if we don't, then and it's like well, the Bible in this print is black, white and red. But after all the years that I've been walking with myself as a human and others, we live out our lives in gray.

Speaker 3: 26:30

Hmm and it ain't 50 shades, it's about 600, is 52,000 shades of gray, and if we don't hold space for that part of our humanity, we just missed the opportunity to connect with people in a deep level.

Speaker 1: 26:50

Yeah, absolutely. I think it's interesting too, because you bring up a point of you don't have to always have the answer and give people answers to their Questions. Sometimes people need to sit with their own questions and that's where. God will. He'll work in their lives. You know he'll be able to reveal truth with the Holy Spirit.

Speaker 1: 27:05

I mean we have generations now of people who can't just be with their own thoughts and and just consider and reflect, quiet time and no technology in front of us. That's kind of taboo like nobody can you know. We have people that just cannot literally sit with their own thoughts. So I love that that you don't necessarily have to have an answer. You sometimes just leave it as is and just be there for people.

Speaker 3: 27:30

Be there, be there, right, that that's Psalm 23. Yay, do I walk through the valley, the shadow of death? I will fear no evil for thou art with me. So good, yeah, that's about being present. That's not it didn't say I. I fear no evil for thou art talking right in my ear, telling me it's gonna be okay in the middle of the dark. Nope, nope, you're just with me, and sometimes you just need to be with people. Mm-hmm, and resist the urge to try to fix it.

Speaker 2: 28:00

Yes, and I think when you talk about making space for people, there's a reason that people in the pornography industry are reaching out to you and asking for prayers. They obviously get a sense that they can be safe with you and being able to share whatever it is that they're going through. And a lot of them have been sexually abused, who have experienced some sort of trauma in their life. Right, and so for them to have somewhere to go that ultimately, hopefully, through the working of the Holy Spirit, will lead them back to Jesus, on whatever timeframe, right God's time is not our time Right. Being able to have that place where we can turn to, to have that well liking in accountability, right to have that trusted friend that we can count on when we're at our lowest, when we know, when we don't know where to turn, is so important to him.

Speaker 3: 28:54

Yeah, it really is. I, I, I'm. I'm really happy that these, these spaces of vulnerability are starting to become more common, because they've been so, so needed. I'm also grateful for the conversations as well. There's a great story that we had in June which is so tender and sweet for me. Every time I even think about it it just Makes me emotional Because it's so sensitive and I think about how weighty the implications are.

Speaker 3: 29:31

I was at a church in Houston To do a Q&A and when we got done they had a little meet and greet Stage and so the people were very kind and encouraging. So this one young lady comes up and she's thanking me for you know the, the podcast and how it's changing her life. Then she says Would you please do me a favor and just say hi to somebody on FaceTime. I'm gonna call him. I said yeah. So she pulls up her phone, facetime's this person and the person's at work another young lady that's in her scrubs. She's, she's at on her job and as soon as she sees my face, she starts crying and thank you so much for your podcast and I'm like you're welcome, love you, and Very brief. She hangs up the phone, hangs up the call and the young lady says that is my wife and I went. Oh, okay, and she goes and we're getting a divorce.

Speaker 3: 30:34

And it's because of what you've been saying through your podcast and she could literally name the episodes that her and her wife had been listening to that brought her I mean I can't. I told you I can't get through it. Um, that brought her and her spouse to the decision that they can't Be married anymore. And I know about the power of the gospel in sermons, but I'm learning more and more about the power of the gospel in conversation and just allowing the Holy Spirit to do the work. There's no way I mean that we've never had a pot where we're like Gays and lesbians shouldn't be married, you know.

Speaker 3: 31:23

But for them to keep listening to conversations and it bring them to that type of conclusion and for them to be so committed to Jesus that they would unwind their relationship and their marriage that who knows what they had to fight for just to even Come into that union in this country, right, come into that union in this country, right. So, um, yeah, it's very, it's very, very sweet. It is emotional. Oh my god, I have to play video games after most pods because I'm like oh my gosh, this is just too much for me all the time. I probably should come out there with Brandon and help the goats Pull up the weeds or something You're welcome one of his horses.

Speaker 3: 32:18

But um, it's. It's very fulfilling work and I remember, after hearing that story from that young lady, I Just told the Lord. I said, lord, I did not need to hear that to be motivated or spurred on to do what I'm doing, but Thank you Like, just thank you.

Speaker 2: 32:37

Wow, that's um. That's really powerful, tim. I'd love to keep talking all day, but we should probably wrap up here. If there was one thing that you were gonna leave with our listeners as a takeaway, what do you think that would be today?

Speaker 3: 32:53

Don't be afraid to speak up, and I'm specifically Speaking in terms of the thing that you're most afraid to say. Don't be afraid to speak up and be seen and heard when you are right now. Where you are is not an indication of where you will be, but you will never know true love Until you risk being loved where you are right now hmm, and it's an excellent way to bring today's episode to a close Tim.

Speaker 1: 33:38

Thank you so much for your work as we bring this episode down and put it to to rest for today. Where can they go to learn more about your ministry and your podcast?

Speaker 3: 33:49

Yeah, so upset the world. Com is our website, the basement with Tim Ross is on YouTube and we have upset the gram on On Instagram and upset the talk on Tic-Tac.

Speaker 1: 34:06

All right, we will put all of those in the show notes because I'm sure a lot of our listeners are, you know, working out on the treadmill or driving their cars, so they may not be able to remember all that. But just check the show notes for links to everything. Tim, bless you and everything that you're doing, and Please continue to let us know how we can support your ministry and support your work. Thank you for sharing the meaningful, powerful stories today.

Speaker 3: 34:27

I'm honored to be with both of you all. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2: 34:31

All right Well to all our listeners. That's all for today. Be sure to subscribe so you can get all the episodes, like this one each week, that we put out. Like us, leave us a review. We want to continue to spread the word and share conversations like this one with Tim with you each and every week. So thanks so much for tuning in and we'll see you again next time. God bless.