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Karen Potter: Hello everyone and welcome to the Covenant eyes podcast.

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Karen Potter: I am your host Karen potter joined today by my co host brandon Clark, how are you brandon.

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Brandon.Clark@covenanteyes.com: i'm doing great how about you Karen.

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Karen Potter: Oh i'm doing fine Thank you so much, and you're doing enough from Florida today which i'm a little jealous, though.

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Brandon.Clark@covenanteyes.com: I am i'm normally from Minnesota so coming down here and getting some vitamin D is well needed and it's a lot of fun.

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Karen Potter: Good good well i'm so glad we have a great show today I can't wait for you to introduce today's guest.

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Karen Potter: But before I do that, I just want to let all of our listeners know that it is super important that.

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Karen Potter: We hear back from you, we want to know how this show is impacting you we love to get emails at our email address, which is podcast at covenant eyes calm.

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Karen Potter: And you can also leave comments in our YouTube channel or wherever you get your podcasts we just love to hear stories of victory and restoration and healing.

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Karen Potter: And how we can help and serve you, you know topics that you want to hear guests that you'd like to have on.

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Karen Potter: This make sure you are like our show and share our show because that's really how we get the word out and we get great resources like today's guests.

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Karen Potter: And you know we can't wait to introduce her, but we want to make sure that people have access to her books and to her content, so we only do that when you share the podcast so make sure you get out there and do that for us.

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Brandon.Clark@covenanteyes.com: yeah absolutely so we're very excited as you were mentioning about our guest today our topic is a very important one it's a tough one, but it's so important that we talk about it.

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Brandon.Clark@covenanteyes.com: intimate deception healing the wounds of sexual betrayal and there's really no one better to talk about this topic, then Dr sherry kefir who is our guest today she's a regular co host of the nationally syndicated radio show.

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Brandon.Clark@covenanteyes.com: Radio talk show new life live, and that has an audience of more than 2 million people each week that's amazing and so wonderful.

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Brandon.Clark@covenanteyes.com: And for over 20 years Dr sherry has worked as a doctor of marriage and family therapy in Newport beach California.

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Brandon.Clark@covenanteyes.com: Through her own personal story of recovery Dr sherry understands the trauma symptoms often associated with sexual but trail.

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Brandon.Clark@covenanteyes.com: And she's also a certified partner trauma therapist supervisor a certified clinical partner spell it specialist and a certified sex addiction therapist.

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Brandon.Clark@covenanteyes.com: And she's also the author of the award winning book intimate deception healing the wounds of sexual betrayal our topic for today and so we'll be diving more into that.

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Brandon.Clark@covenanteyes.com: And one last thing she's the founder of brave one calm the brave one Community and bravery after betrayal it takes fierce strength retreat so many wonderful things Dr sherry is doing and we're so glad to have you on with us today.

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Sheri Keffer: Oh i'm so honored to be with you and Karen today.

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Karen Potter: Dr sherry today's topic is a tough one, so I mean it's definitely one that I think our listeners are really going to want to hear, but it is, it is very emotional and it is a tough topic so.

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Karen Potter: You know betrayal trauma is real and it's something that a lot of us have experienced, I know that, through your story you talk a little bit about your own experience in this area, can you share a little bit of your story and what motivated you to write this amazing book intimate deception.

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Sheri Keffer: yeah I am you know folks asked me that and, and this is so interesting because it's a story that I would have never thought I would share it's one that I would say it's probably the greatest heartache of my life and yet it's also been the greatest story of hope.

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Sheri Keffer: So Connor and I were married and I fell in love with Connor I I did grow to love him really quickly he he was very charismatic loving funny.

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Sheri Keffer: Soft beachy curls and just just really got along right away, but what I didn't know is that Connor had been struggling with.

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Sheri Keffer: A porn addiction and also had been struggling with sexually acting out for a number of years I knew, one thing I he had he had called a 900 number.

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Sheri Keffer: When we were dating and I don't even know what that was back in the day, and it was a sex line.

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Sheri Keffer: And so I talked to his brother, and I said, what is this, you know, I was going to college at that point, I was at a Bible college and his brother said honestly, he said.

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Sheri Keffer: Probably every guy on this campus has called a 900 number so, and if, if not they're lying and, and so I I said Okay, I guess it's pretty common I talked to Connor about it, he said he was sorry, and I did what I thought I would do is I forgave him that day.

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Sheri Keffer: Because I thought you know it all I need to do is look at my own life, and I have got a rap sheet that I wouldn't want folks to know about it, you know, so I thought okay.

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Sheri Keffer: I forgave him, but what I didn't know and what I didn't do was ask deeper questions to further understand how long he'd been struggling with.

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Sheri Keffer: porn and in the term of our marriage, there was pornography, which opened up the door to affairs and prostitutes and, ultimately, and sadly ended our marriage in a divorce.

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Sheri Keffer: But my story didn't end as a casualty just because our marriage did I think out of that.

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Sheri Keffer: came this desire to help other people to help other couples to help partners to help those that are caught up in sexual acting out.

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Sheri Keffer: Because I didn't have a roadmap I didn't know what to do.

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Sheri Keffer: I didn't know what to do with what Connor was doing and we wandered so aimlessly for so long, and I just don't want that to happen anymore, so my book.

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Sheri Keffer: Is a way that I can reach out to betrayed partners to help them heal and in reaching out to them, I feel like i'm also reaching out.

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Sheri Keffer: To the one that they love that sexually acting out in some way to help pull them out of the muck Meyer and barbed wire of what they're entrapped in in this world of sexual deception.

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Brandon.Clark@covenanteyes.com: that's amazing how we can use our misery and it becomes our ministry, and so I just want to thank you, Dr sherry for.

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Brandon.Clark@covenanteyes.com: being bold and being courageous and invulnerable for sharing your story, because I think so many people need what you have to offer in this in working through the.

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Brandon.Clark@covenanteyes.com: The betrayal trauma, which is one of the things that you mentioned in your book and.

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Brandon.Clark@covenanteyes.com: You know I don't normally do this until later on in a podcast, but I just really think it's important now if somebody is listening there's a there's a spouse listening listening or another.

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Brandon.Clark@covenanteyes.com: situation has popped up where a betrayal trauma has come into the picture you know what message would you have for that person listening right now about working through that betrayal trauma and how and just what they can do.

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Sheri Keffer: yeah you know I, I want to give them hope if you're listening right now whether you're listening, as the person who's been sexually betrayed because.

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Sheri Keffer: You know, sexual betrayal happens to both men and women and.

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Sheri Keffer: i'm going to be talking probably from more of a female stance today because of my research and stuff, but I just want you to know you're in good company to even be here and if you're somebody that's sexually acting out.

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Sheri Keffer: Let me just say this, I have seen couples i've seen people healed through this it's possible to heal you don't have to stay.

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Sheri Keffer: trapped in the acting out and for those of you that have experienced sexual betrayal, let me say this to you.

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Sheri Keffer: I get it, I know your heartache I have been there and I sit with thousands and thousands of women on a daily and weekly basis hearing your stories and I want to invite you.

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Sheri Keffer: To not only listen but come out of that the dark of the corner of that shame that you're in because of the acting out we we don't reach out for help and we can't heal we can't change this, we can't change our ministry we can't change our home.

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Sheri Keffer: We can't change our lives we can't change the acting out that's happening, we can't protect our families.

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Sheri Keffer: We can't do any of that until we actually step into support and and that's why i'm here today is to open the door wide so that you can walk in it and hear what needs to happen to change your world and what's happening to you.

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Karen Potter: Dr sherry when you were telling your story, you know it really struck me that you know, women are often.

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Karen Potter: And I think you use this term like Shell shocked when they find out about their husbands behavior because.

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Karen Potter: You know, often we don't know how bad it is we don't know how you know how long it's been going on, we only see the surface of facts and so we're really Shell shocked I think that's a great way, to put it.

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Karen Potter: And we begin to experience that the betrayal trauma, can you talk a little further into that for our listeners, and what does it look like in the day to day life because some of them might be experiencing that right now and it might help them to see where they're at in this journey.

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Sheri Keffer: yeah hey Karen thanks for asking so it's interesting when you look at the word trauma it actually comes from the Greek meaning to wound or to hurt or to penetrate.

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Sheri Keffer: and emotional traumas like sexual betrayal from from porn or from sexually acting out in any way they happen under the skin they don't show up.

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Sheri Keffer: Like a flesh wound that's caused by a gunshot or stabbing or something like that, and I think betrayed partners do their best to soldier through the pain.

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Sheri Keffer: Yet we don't see that deeper tearing of their heart that happens because of sexual deception those those wounds in right there invisible and they cause us to bleed out from the inside.

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Sheri Keffer: When I did research with 100 women, this is what was so shocking and what I found is 76% of them had symptoms of post traumatic stress.

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Sheri Keffer: i'll never forget the call I got from one gentleman he actually served in the military and I thanked him for his service and but.

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Sheri Keffer: You know, as quickly as I did, that he just said i've got to talk to you i've really, really hurt my wife and he said i've struggled with acting out pornography.

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Sheri Keffer: For a number of years and i've tried to stop so many times, he said, my wife has gotten so angry and hurt the last time she found porn you know she asked me, are you still looking at porn and I said no.

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Sheri Keffer: And I didn't want to hurt her he says i've struggled because i've been on so many military expeditions.

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Sheri Keffer: And i've taken down so much bad, he said, this is the one thing for 20 years that i've not been able to take down and and she stayed with me through thick and thin I didn't want to hurt her he says to last week.

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Sheri Keffer: She found porn again, and she came to me and was really upset and he just said, you got to help her so I he connected with me with her and she got on the phone and.

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Sheri Keffer: When I started talking with her, I couldn't really understand what she was saying her voice was really raspy and I asked her I said, we may have a bad connection.

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Sheri Keffer: And she said no sherry, she said when when I found that my husband had been looking at porn again I came to him.

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Sheri Keffer: And when he told me he had looked I screamed and she said I screamed now, and she basically ruptured her vocal cords.

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Sheri Keffer: And that was a story i've never forgotten because sexual betrayal causes traumatic impact and those of us and it changes the way we see ourselves and how we live.

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Sheri Keffer: there's a ton of grief and this grief can leave a scar in our hearts, because we ask ourselves, like How did this happen.

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Sheri Keffer: You know what Why did I see this before, and then we wonder who can we tell we were afraid to reach out to support we're afraid of what people would think of us.

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Sheri Keffer: Because of whatever the sexual act is we're afraid of what they're going to think about the one we're with and we we say you know we're like can I even trust.

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Sheri Keffer: him or her again are our kids safe that's a huge fear for so many and then there's a lot of spiritual disillusionment like where is God why isn't God helping.

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Sheri Keffer: me helping this and I felt all of these things with Connor and it's it's just a heartache because I think that so many couples and people are given.

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Sheri Keffer: Either bad advice or no direction at all and and so these you know admissions can leak out like drips and drabs, and they can leave a life Shell shock like grenades going off.

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Sheri Keffer: Over and over again.

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Brandon.Clark@covenanteyes.com: I appreciate that explanation i've seen this play out in my own marriage actually in my wife and I have had to have some deep healing from the impacts.

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Brandon.Clark@covenanteyes.com: And the way she describes it is being in a foxhole with the person next to you and the person next to throws a grenade and it goes off next to you like.

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Brandon.Clark@covenanteyes.com: You would never expect it, and so what I think is interesting and maybe you could talk about is.

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Brandon.Clark@covenanteyes.com: You know there's a lot of focus on the porn news itself and overcoming the porn, which is something that we do with accountability at covenant eyes.

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Brandon.Clark@covenanteyes.com: But it seems like there's less conversations happening around the impact of that line and deception, as I mentioned that grenade going off with the person right next to you because all of a sudden, it can reduce like.

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Brandon.Clark@covenanteyes.com: What just happened we had no idea what happened, and the fact that that has been happening for years and years and years until it seemed like in our marriage it just exploded at one point, can you talk to that.

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Sheri Keffer: So appreciate that.

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Sheri Keffer: brandon you know, I was working with.

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Sheri Keffer: Hebrew scholar his name is Dr frank sequins and we were talking about deception in lying and I asked him how, how is that kind of fettered out and he told me that back in the day.

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Sheri Keffer: The ancient Hebrew was written a lot like Chinese or Egyptian or Arabic, it was actually word pictures that were formed by adding a picture and sounds together in order to paint and illustrate the meaning of a word well.

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Sheri Keffer: When it comes to the word betrayal there's two ideas that come to mind one is the word to Rima which means to betray.

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Sheri Keffer: And the ancient Hebrew word picture, for that is what comes from a person of chaos.

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Sheri Keffer: Now, think about it brandon in your own life right when you're acting out and you're involved in porn.

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Sheri Keffer: It it basically puts chaos not into your own personhood but also into your your family in your marriage and then the other word is to deceive, which is a God and it means to hide to cover to deal on faithfully with and.

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Sheri Keffer: And when it comes to porn use and sexually acting out I used to think brandon and Karen that it was like denial like maybe people didn't know what they were doing, but now that i'm a certified sex addiction therapist and i've worked with folks that you know are acting out in some way.

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Sheri Keffer: compulsively sexually acting out i've discovered that they're not in denial they're actually in deception they they know what they're doing and.

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Sheri Keffer: That act of being in the foxhole with someone who knowingly is going to look at porn is knowingly going to act out with others, it it's so harmful and.

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Sheri Keffer: And then another word picture comes from this it's basically.

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Sheri Keffer: like this person has constructed and virtual secret sexual basement underneath their family home.

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Sheri Keffer: it's not a basement that's you know many of us have that's brick and mortar and we go underground and you know have dinners or family gatherings down there.

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Sheri Keffer: it's a virtual sexual space that's undetectable to family members so it's like the husband comes home he you know says hey honey kisses his wife.

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Sheri Keffer: You know, puts his books down whatever gives the kids a hug goes to the front door and the idea is like okay i'm home we're safe everything's good.

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Sheri Keffer: But later, you know that husband goes down into his secret sexual basement and where he acts acts out right looks at porn maybe goes to virtual sex chat rooms, maybe looks at porn videos or cyber sex whatever it is he's acting out without his wife's knowledge.

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Sheri Keffer: And so, he comes home and she has no idea and that's where there's the violation there wasn't consent.

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Sheri Keffer: She doesn't know he's doing this and it could include anything from pornography to affairs to access a time and money spent to affairs with coworkers and.

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Sheri Keffer: massage parlors even babies born outside and and that's what happened in my marriage with Connor there was a whole other world.

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Sheri Keffer: of sexual acting out that I was completely unaware of, I had known about the porn but I had no idea that he was regularly acting out with prostitutes.

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Sheri Keffer: And that he had multiple affairs in fact that all happened during the time we were in four years of counseling we were going to counseling three times a week.

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Sheri Keffer: And you know, I was going he was going we're going as a couple but that's the intimate deception betrayal trauma the trauma of the line the trauma of the deceit, because we had no idea I had no idea that all this was going going down, and it was hurting me deeply.

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Karen Potter: Dr sherry it's really interesting that you talk about that deceit, because one of the things that you know, a covenant eyes, we talk a lot about is that.

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Karen Potter: Are the software and the tools that we offer you know we're trying to help people restore integrity and integrity is kind of the opposite of destruction right, I mean, in some ways it's.

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Karen Potter: it's restoring trust and and you know your word is you know you say something you do it.

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Karen Potter: On deception, though, when you experienced that as a spouse How does that impact other areas of your life because gosh it's a person that you're.

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Karen Potter: you're closest to you know is is deceiving you in this way it's got to create other issues and other spaces of your life is that true, and how does that How does that work its way out.

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Sheri Keffer: In our lives so so true Karen.

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Sheri Keffer: You bring up a good point you know it's amazing how God gave us.

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Sheri Keffer: This very real thing called intuition and God also gave us all a gut a gut you know we have these gut instincts.

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Sheri Keffer: Well, you know when I think about my own intuition and I think about my gut instincts when somebody is lying they're acting out in some way.

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Sheri Keffer: And I have a sense in my gut I have a gut instinct that something's going on, I may not know what's going on, but I just feel it in my body.

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Sheri Keffer: And when I bring it to the one who's acting out who, I think, is acting out and they lie they dismiss they blame they might even do something called gaslighting gaslighting is when somebody strategically twist the truth.

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Sheri Keffer: In order to make you feel like something in you, is wrong and bad in order to cover up their sexual acting out it's you know, like and blame.

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Sheri Keffer: In deception is very common when somebody is acting out, they want to hide what they're doing, but when you bring it to that person and they say no.

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Sheri Keffer: I don't know what you're talking about or you know you're just you're always thinking that something's going on, I don't know what's wrong with you right either either those kind of things, what happens is it puts me in a dilemma.

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Sheri Keffer: I can either trust the one that standing in front of me that saying no nothing's going on, or I can trust my gut in my gut instinct my intuition.

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Sheri Keffer: And so the gut is known as our second brain and we we erodes our gut instincts and pretty soon we don't even trust ourselves.

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Sheri Keffer: Because we had to make a choice, do I trust him or do I trust my gut and that gaslighting is considered a psychological abuse it's another piece of the impact of betrayal trauma.

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Sheri Keffer: That hurts us deeply and So yes, we end up not trusting ourselves, we end up not trusting others we end up not trusting men, I remember with Connor after.

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Sheri Keffer: I left the Church, I mean the first church, I went to as a means of just trying to get reconnected with God and people.

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Sheri Keffer: I remember sitting there, and there was a pastor that was up there, and I remember thinking, to my mind yeah it's probably a porn addict.

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Sheri Keffer: And then the deacon started, you know passing the plate, and I was like oh yeah they probably struggle with porn I mean.

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Sheri Keffer: What I was jacked up because I had been living in sexual betrayal and my trust was eroded, and yes, it hurt my heart, and it also hurt my mind, and my ability to trust other people.

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Karen Potter: that's really interesting because I think a lot of times women, you know we're walking wounded in the churches and I don't think that's addressed enough, because often we paint on you know it's all Okay, because we don't want to show that wound business but.

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Karen Potter: In our pews every Sunday, you know we're surrounded by women who are struggling in this way, and what I you know this is.

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Karen Potter: You know you maybe don't have a good answer for this, but what can the church do as a body to be more accepting and able to support luminous houses, specifically that are new to trail trauma and not getting the support that they need Is there something to do, should be doing.

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Sheri Keffer: yeah you know what I am very passionate about that, because I think the Church is often the first place, like people go in order to get help.

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Sheri Keffer: You know I in actually sent out an email to 7000 betrayed partners to ask them that question to say hey.

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Sheri Keffer: What is happening on the street with you as you've reached out in the church to get support tell me just what has helped in and what has hurt.

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Sheri Keffer: Because I really wanted to get a better idea, and let me first say what doesn't help and then i'll tell you what does help because I got people that shared both things.

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Sheri Keffer: So what doesn't help is when they go to a church leader or a lay leader and the lay leader or the pastor doesn't believe them.

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Sheri Keffer: They might say, well, you know how do you know how do you know that he's looking at porn and begin to kind of interrogate and it's okay to ask that question but It just seems to be leaning.

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Sheri Keffer: To protect the one who's acting out and then they might say things like this will you know hey how is things with the kids have you been focusing in on your kids too much.

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Sheri Keffer: or i've had women say that pastors have said that you know all heart men are hard wired to look at a pretty woman, I mean it's what we do.

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Sheri Keffer: Now, when she's coming in walking wounded like you said Karen because she's experiencing the impact of porn that is hurtful.

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Sheri Keffer: Some of them have said well you know, maybe you guys just need to start going on more dates or buy some new lingerie or.

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Sheri Keffer: And some of them, sadly, do nothing they come in, they share and then nothing happens up you know nothing happens after that and.

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Sheri Keffer: One woman was telling me she went to tell a pastor and the first place, she went with her was you've got to forgive him it's a sin, not to forgive now these things don't help in fact.

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Sheri Keffer: In what can happen with really well meaning folks that are out there pastors and clergy lay people counselors is when we don't take that woman's word seriously, that is there's a problem in the home of sexual acting out pornography or any other of the things we've talked about today.

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Sheri Keffer: And they minimize it what can happen is they can unknowingly collude with deception.

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Sheri Keffer: I want to say that again because I think that person is being so brave to come and bring their story, but when that person who's on the front line.

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Sheri Keffer: doesn't take it seriously doesn't follow up doesn't find out more doesn't require that that couple get into care and treatment.

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Sheri Keffer: doesn't decide that it's a big problem and we need to have maybe support groups, what happens is deception just rains it rains in our churches it rains and our families.

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Sheri Keffer: And there are walking wounded their kiddos there's there's children that are finding porn on their dads computers.

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Sheri Keffer: Their dads devices, there are kids that are just walking wounded, because parents are fighting and they don't understand why.

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Sheri Keffer: And we need to be, we need to intervene, we need to help and not walk away from it, and sadly it me Connor was a pastor and the numbers of pastors.

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Sheri Keffer: That are struggling in sexually acting out is huge and I think in some ways it might be why some of the churches are blocked.

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Sheri Keffer: in getting the care they need because Oh, my goodness, you know it's hard to call people up and call them into integrity, when you know the pastor himself is struggling with it so again.

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Sheri Keffer: We have an enemy that's alive and well, and he is the father of lies.

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Sheri Keffer: Satan is is known as is the evil one right and the father, the bottomless pit and I feel like when our churches are not taking this seriously, there is a whole level of ground that we give to an enemy, that would love to keep us walking wounded day tomorrow in a nice.

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Brandon.Clark@covenanteyes.com: You know, Dr sherry, we have just a couple minutes left here and I do want to make sure that we get to a couple of things, the first is that.

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Brandon.Clark@covenanteyes.com: You have a special opportunity for our listeners today to dive further into this is specifically for women who have experienced sexual betrayal.

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Brandon.Clark@covenanteyes.com: The other thing is that there is an important conference coming up, called the restoring hearts conference Saturday may 14 so, can you just speak to these two things for us and for our listeners.

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Sheri Keffer: Oh, I appreciate it brandon yeah so first off if you've been listening to me today and to us right reading care in this conversation.

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Sheri Keffer: I would like to invite you, if you're a woman and you're betrayed partner and you'd like to have some support care love and get it factor as far as someone understanding what's going on.

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Sheri Keffer: A couple years ago I opened up actually it was at the beginning of the pandemic I opened up a Community it's called the brave one community.

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Sheri Keffer: And I actually provide a roadmap for you to heal and I provide a roadmap of what's needed for you to help the one who's acting out get out of, as I mentioned before, there.

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Sheri Keffer: get out of this self deception get out of the acting out in the porn and I just don't want you to wonder like I did for so long.

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Sheri Keffer: And i'd like to offer you a free month in my community and if you'd like to come in for a free month just go to brave one.com forward slash covenant.

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Sheri Keffer: that's B ra di O ne.com forward slash and the word covenant co ve and auntie and then you're going to go to this page and then all you need to do is put the word covenant again.

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Sheri Keffer: Co ve nt in the coupon box at the checkout and that way I can get to know you I can spend time with you, I do a lot of teaching and healing and we've got coaches and support in there, so and then.

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Sheri Keffer: And there's a little free thing that when you when you actually sign up.

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Sheri Keffer: you'll get some great tips on what to do with sexual betrayal but i'm going to be boots on the ground i'm going to be live at the restoring hearts conference on Saturday may 14 i'm going to be talking about healing the trauma trifecta.

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Sheri Keffer: At the conference and i'm going to be looking at betrayal trauma i'm going to be looking at how we've been impacted because of the pandemic, on top of betrayal trauma and then looking at how the inner plays with our own personal trauma.

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Sheri Keffer: Family of origin or trauma, in addition, maybe as an adult you experienced some trauma so i'm going to be layering all that together and giving you very practical tools for how you can heal it's in Washington.

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Sheri Keffer: If you'd like to get more information about it just go to restoring hearts conference.org it's R E s T O R I n G hearts, he rts conference, the word conference co n F er en CE e.org and you'll get a ton of more information on i'd love to see you there.

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Karen Potter: As someone that's been to that conference and i've actually witnessed you have on stage it, it is an amazing event the women there the Community that is formed at that event is powerful, so I would definitely encourage our listeners.

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Karen Potter: To check out all of the resources they will be in the show notes and also registered to attend this conference, if you want to get connected with women.

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Karen Potter: who are in the trenches with you some are further ahead on the journey and some are just getting started, but as a Community, we are stronger together, and I would just encourage you to be there, it is a great event.

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Karen Potter: i'm in you know, including today, Dr Dr pepper pepper sorry we'll come back i'm sorry I was like blending your first and last name.

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Karen Potter: that's okay.

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Karen Potter: yeah and coughing today I do want to just reiterate to all of our listeners, you know, one of the things I think is really common is that we talk a lot about.

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Karen Potter: The struggle, or the person that is struggling with the pornography or sex addiction, but oftentimes we forget about the spouse and I want to let the listeners know you know, there are resources there are.

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Karen Potter: places that you can get the tools and the support that you need and your recovery is just as important as the person that is struggling with pornography addiction or other sexual traumas.

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Karen Potter: That they may be experiencing, it is just so important, is there anything that you want to just in final closing statements, Dr sherry to share with the listeners as a point of reference, or maybe an encouraging word to end on.

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Sheri Keffer: yeah come hither.

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Sheri Keffer: Come heather come in and as Karen just said, I welcome you.

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Sheri Keffer: I welcome you to do your own work, I think so many of us get stuck in the idea that.

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Sheri Keffer: We want the one who's acting out to to figure out what they need to do to stop doing what they're doing the thing that's hurting us, but what we don't know.

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Sheri Keffer: Is that we need to heal from the betrayal trauma and I liken it to going into an emergency room and we've got to get on a gurney.

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Sheri Keffer: And allow some safe and loving other people to help bind our wounds, to help us healed betrayal.

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Sheri Keffer: I didn't have that early on, and I think that's what kept me a walking wounded for so long, but it's here like Karen said and brandon.

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Sheri Keffer: y'all are just I love that you fact the fact that you guys have done this because we, I want to cast a net out to say you don't have to stay stuck on either end of the spectrum there is so much help, and I want to help direct you right today don't wait.

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Sheri Keffer: We there'll be no shame no judgment love and acceptance as we're helping you figure out what you need to heal and restore your home back to a place of integrity and safety.

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Brandon.Clark@covenanteyes.com: Dr sherry thanks so much for being on with us today, thank you for sharing not only your story, but just the the book and how we can, through brave one calm the brave Horn Community everything that you've talked about be able to help those who are experiencing betrayal trauma.

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Sheri Keffer: Well, thank you and I love what you guys are doing a covenant eyes, I have, I continue to herald that as a great resource to help people in you know, safeguarding themselves and their home.

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Brandon.Clark@covenanteyes.com: yeah absolutely Thank you and, if you are enjoying this conversation maybe it's your first time, maybe you've been listening for a while now.

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Brandon.Clark@covenanteyes.com: Please continue to spread the word because conversations, like this one.

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Brandon.Clark@covenanteyes.com: They get out through you so spread the word leave us a review and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts so that we can continue to grow.

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Brandon.Clark@covenanteyes.com: Not just for our sake but, to be able to help so many people out there who are in need of messages like Dr sherry kefir shared today.

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Brandon.Clark@covenanteyes.com: You can also drop us a note and provide some feedback for us, maybe a follow up topic you'd like to listen to by emailing us at podcast at covenant eyes COM that's podcast at covenant eyes calm.

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Karen Potter: All right, and from all of us that coming to eyes that we want to thank you for being here today and we'll see you next time have a great day.